Recruiting on Feeder RMBs

AlHoma

AlHoma

TNPer
I'm interested in having a reasoned discussion of the recent Feeder RMB recruiting done.

Few House Rules
1. No Insults. Yes I know that this probably wasn't a smart thing to do, but deal with it. Yes I know that The Pacific has a different government style than us. And Yes I am aware that each region has their rights to impose specific rules on their message board
2. Posts must be constructive. Your post must either provide new content to the discussion or must re-inforce a previously made point with a new example
3. Administrators have the right to shut down the thread at any time, however are encouraged to close the thread if it becomes a flamefest.

So I'll start...

I think that the recruiting in other feeder regions is somewhat in the grey area as to what you can and can't do. However if allowing feeders to recruit in the others, we would be looking at a maximum of 6 messages from other feeders attempting to spirit our membership away. Is our grip on power that tenous that we cannot risk other feeders in addition to the regular recruiters? Yes the RMB would become even more useless (I almost never read it anyway) but I think that all nations should have the right to know about other feeder regions besides the one that they were bourn in
 
The way I see it, it's perfectly legal to do, and there's nothing wrong with it. All regions have the ability to send someone out to post a few messages. It's not very difficult.

I just looked at our registration facts, and in the last few days which I have been recruiting for the forum within TNP, we've gained 3 members - one a day since Thursday. None have joined the RA yet, and I'm not even sure they've posted. Recruiting solely from our region simply isn't effective enough. We need to spread to other regions so that we can have enough members to maintain our government, forum, and culture.
 
What your Minister is doing is clearly against your interests. You will gain nothing from recruitment save enmity with a region, or perhaps more.

And you knew that spam makes Pacifican blood boil. It is a stab on the back by a fellow feeder to another. Looks like rabble rousing to me.
 
The New Duce:
What your Minister is doing is clearly against your interests. You will gain nothing from recruitment save enmity with a region, or perhaps more.

And you knew that spam makes Pacifican blood boil. It is a stab on the back by a fellow feeder to another. Looks like rabble rousing to me.
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You'll note The Pacific is the only region that has so much as raised an eyebrow over these ads. The sole intent of the ads was to bring new members to our forum and the RA. To accuse me of "rabble rousing" is incorrect and offensive.
 
So? The Pacific clearly is not concerned with what other regions do. You are recruiting from Pacific soil. They decided not to grant you the priviledge.

Smells like you're looking for trouble. I just read a speech where you refer to things like "freedom" and "aggression". Politically motivated, no doubt.
 
If you would like to accuse me of something, you may say it DIRECTLY TO ME without beating about the bush.

Dragging The Pacific into this discussion is not completely on-topic. The topic was opened for the intention of discussing feeder recruiting in a general sense. Let's not drag our own political motives into this.
 
I think I've been pretty direct. I did accuse YOU of rabble rousing. Did I beat around the bush?

Dragging The Pacific into this discussion is not completely on-topic. The topic was opened for the intention of discussing feeder recruiting in a general sense. Let's not drag our own political motives into this.
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Are you being serious? The Pacific is a feeder.
 
The New Duce:
What your Minister is doing is clearly against your interests. You will gain nothing from recruitment save enmity with a region, or perhaps more.

And you knew that spam makes Pacifican blood boil. It is a stab on the back by a fellow feeder to another. Looks like rabble rousing to me.
Click to expand...
I respect you TND, always have. So, pelase do not take these as insults. I am a mere userite, butmaybe I have something useful to say.

I went out fro a stroll and did some recruitment. I almost shat myself when I saw good ol' Hersfold recruiting for TNP in other feeders. I have seen a lot in this game, but this was a first for me.

For the sake of evenness, and being fair to all if I am allowed to recruit from the feeders while obeying their respective rules for recruitment, though the rules seem the same for the most part then the feeders should be allowed to recruit as well.

I do not see how it is a slap in the face. In allr eality us suerites ad some flavor to theb game if you will. No offense, I love the feeders I really do. I have been active on many of the feeder forums especially TNP and TP. But, without user created regions the game would eb dull and boring. I think user created regions and feeders compliment each other. Ying and yang if you will.

Also, the feeders have the same interest as userites. we want regional activity to increase, and how do we do that, we do that via recruitment. So, if userites can recruit so should feederites. Not to mention the rules permit it as well.
 
I have not brought Francoism up to the table, AA. I know most residents of this region do not favour the theory, so perhaps we should face this discussion with less theoretical restraints.

The person campaigning against spam in the North Pacific has spammed the Pacific. I have heard justifications for these actions involving game mechanics, even from its own Prime Minister. The same Prime Minister who refused to recognise a Senator from the Pacific because he was not the delegate. Why, I could certify he is a Moldavist if I didn't know him any better.

I fear the North may be losing its way if these developments continue :P
 
Well, I was under the impression that TNP allowed spam as long as it followed certain guidelines?

Yes, we will abstain from getting into Francoist theory my friend. :)

If you could PM the detauils I woudl appreciate that. I would like to better understand these circumstances. Thank you.
 
:ph34r:

As long as I have been in this game, feeders have complained, often bitterly, about the recruitment allowed on their RMBs. I do not understand at all this reversal on the part of TNP. It makes no logical sense, and it is hurtful to all other feeders.

Just because an action is legal does not make it ethical or morally right.
 
[Playing devils advocate, not saying this is the view I endorse]

Why can't TNP change their minds? Why do the views have to stay the same? As long as they do not get mad at recruiters for rexcruiting on their boards. I can understand the line limit. But, if they want folks to respect their ability to recruit in other feeders, then they need to do the same for others.
 
This has never been an issue before for the simple reason that it's clearly damn rude. The Pacific has a boot on sight policy towards all advertisers, no exceptions, especially when the adverts cause more irritation because they're coming from a region with natural growth.

When Hersford or any TNP member visits the Pacific they're foreigners, we view the misguided actions of your minister of immigration as flyposting, wanton vandalism of our message board, something I'm quite sure you'd object to if Pacific tourists started flyposting on yours.

I've seen a mixed response to his actions here but frankly, as adults we're all quite aware where continuation of this policy will lead, mounting distrust between our regions and piles upon piles of pointless message board spam, let's not go there eh?

Regards.
Sei
Senator of Pacification
 
While it is legal, what is the actual point of recruiting from feeders? Do you not have enough nations in your region to ask to participate in your forum and government?

I'm just curious if you have exhausted all means to gain activity in your region. If you have, then I can begin to see some justification, but you have over 4,000 nations sitting around in TNP!
 
I am back now and have a few comments

1. As was said earlier, this is not the current TNP/TP conflict. We're talking about Feeder Recruiting in general.

2. Hersford and The New Duce: I ask that both of you attempt to keep your posts civil. We are attempting to have a reasoned discussion of what policy would work.

3.
Sei:
This has never been an issue before for the simple reason that it's clearly damn rude. The Pacific has a boot on sight policy towards all advertisers, no exceptions, especially when the adverts cause more irritation because they're coming from a region with natural growth.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, this has been the first instance of a feeder region recruiting in annother. Why then does our region justify special recognion and attention of The Pacific Government?

4. The most involved players will probably check the RMB fairly frequently (or have a way to log all the RMB messages). Does it not stand to reason that a player may unhappy with their current region and desire to move to annother but not know where to move to?
 
Let's face the real problem here: Each feeder has to contend with spam. I think the Pacific has always tried to take a stance against it and when another feeder decides to add to the problem it is taken as an affront.

I personally note that TNP has advertised in other feeders as well. However, the timing for you to do this could not have been a little off than any other time.

I really don't think I can agree with you assessment that the most active players would use the RMB. If anything, most avoid it because of the large amount of spam.

The fact of the matter is that if you are really serious about recruitment you would not advertise on the RMB. Instead, you would provide personal invites. That's a much more effective means to bring in players to a region. That is from experience.

You know that spam is a touchy issue in feeders. I think Pacific citizens have a right to be surprised by this recruitment from another fellow Pacific.
 
I hope you don't mind if I join the discussions :)

A userite's view on spam is totally, and evidently d3ifferent from the view of a feederite, when I was a userite, I used to ALWAYS spam, once every 24 hours, that wouldn't miss, when I became a feederite, even if I had my own region, specially when I became delegate of Laz, I understood how irritating spam was.

The RMB, I believe is the property of the region's members, I believe that instead of spamming other feeders' boards, we should work on eliminating ours, why? TNP has members, seeing a region full of ads in their RMB isn't quite pleasing so the member would go away and look at those instead of staying, but uif they see a conversation ongoing, they will find a reason to stay.
Spam is still spam no matter what form it is, or who's is it. Spammig others' boards is like inviting spammers to our boards and saying "hey! it's ok to spam so feel free to spam our boards!" It's time we reclaim our RMB!
If TNP uis really desperate for members, why not do it via TG? As Warrior Thorin said, TGs work best. considering I am a recruiter for years now, I can assure you, that TGs work best.

:2c:
 
I think its a sad day when TNP is so downtroddenthey cant get enough people on the forums. Honestly, never before has a feeder had to recruit from others. And dont give me that "NS is dying" crap, if regions like mine can grow 900 nations and have probably the most active board in NS in a little under 5 months, then a feeder with its natural advantage should be rolling in members!
 
considering that I have never seen Lex recruit via RMB, they've still been very successful. I do strongly believe that recruiting personally via TG is the most ethical, and effective way of recruiting.
 
Recruiting of any sort is a necessary irritation at the best of times.





lexiconwitch.gif

"Tell me something I don't know!"
 
[global mod]Tweedy your earlier post about the restrictions for the user group you are currently in is off-topic in this thread. You know where the appropriate forum is to place your request. Thank you.[/global mod] [Admin Edit]The answer is NO anyway. Past offenses show that you cannot be trusted with those privileges.[/edit]

The most effective way to recruit for any region is to have things to offer that players will want. That is why I think the efforts to develop a TNP economy and banking system is such a good idea. I also liked Flem's idea for a TNP University, and I'm not sure why Flem has not presented a proposal to implement that idea during this term. (It would also have the effect of making the Minister of Culture and Education a much more attractive position.)

In the region where my UN is located (the International Democratic Union), a UN Proposal Writing Service has been formalized -- the assistance the IDU offers to those developing proposals for the UN has proven to be an effective recruitment tool. The IDU also has a flag design service, and a mapmaking service as well, so there are things that folks find of value and interest.

As ti posting recruiting ads, at a minimum it has to be a quid pro quo. We cannot ask for a different standard to be applied to ads placed on our RMB than for ads our region might place on other region's RMB. If the Pacific doesn't want anything we should respect that, but on the other hand, we should expect them to follow the exact same course.
 
Tweedy, any more off-topic posts will result in a warning. Due to your zero-tolerance policy, that in turn would result in an IP ban. Stay on topic, or shut up.

Anyway, I've made a statement concerning the recruitment in my office, if anyone is interested.
 
Hmm.

Does anybody remember when the NPO/PRP had at least two nations in our top-10 nearly every day with NPO flags and pro-NPO mottos? I've been trying to find the link to the topic discussing the issue on s2 but can't seem to find it. I think it occured sometime during the summer of 2005.

IIRC, it was the government's decision not to say anything about it, since it was silly anyway. This entire issue is silly. If they have an issue, they can stuff it. What's the worst they could do?
 
:ph34r:

As I recall, the topic was recruiting from other feeders. The issue concerning The Pacific, while related, is not the main topic, and thus it seems to have morphed into an issue of "backing down" from a "hostile power" or not.

There were two things that made this more than it needed to be: the arrogance of Hersfold and Flemingovia in the irc conversation between myself and other NPO officials, and the response itself. I won't provide the irc log because I have not asked for permission from all concerned. The conversation did not begin as a demand on our end; as Senator concerned with foreign affairs, I asked Hersford if he intended to continue to recruit from our RMB; he replied that he did and if we didn't like it then it was too bad; it was legal and he was going to do it. At that point I became more strident. He then told me I could talk to Flemingovia. Flemingovia dismissed me, and insulted the entire Senate, as not being worth dealing with because I was not the delegate. That was rude and a mistake on his part, and added to the tension.

The entire issue was about sovereignty and respect; ours was dismissed from the beginning. You can't throw garbage in your neighbor's yard without consequence. To not expect the reaction you received was naive and incompetent; Hersford is neither. So it seemed like an intentional provocation.

On the issue as a whole, to recruit on the RMB from other feeders is highly disrespectful and counterproductive. It's bad enough that we all have to deal with it from other regions. TAO has created an anti-spam squad (of which the NPO is a part) to help keep feeder RMBs clear; to say that only the NPO has an issue with this is clearly mistaken. I don't know that it has been done before, but I would hope that this idea doesn't rear its ugly head again.
 
Before the days of offsite forums, the RMB was THE message center for a region. While forums are good, TAO thinks we have lost our greatest sense of Community when we abandon our RMBs to AdSpammers.

During the Great Bight War and again later during the Pixiedance Wars in The North Pacific, the control of the RMB was a big concern. I can recall nights where TAO stayed up until the wee hours bantering back and forth with allies & enemies. The RMB on those nights was the real warzone; the comments flew past at an amazing rate. Players would post continuously … insult, retort, parry, strike … it was awesome. If your had a quick retort or a snappy comeback but a slow computer or slow refresh, you missed perfect moments. I laughed, I fumed, I was creative … I had FUN!!!

During the days (weeks?) of these battles, friendships and (begrudging) respects for sharp-witted players were forged. It was a game … in fact, it was THE GAME at its finest. I couldn’t wait to get my kids off the computer and into their rooms for bed so I could sit at the computer and act like a kid again. It was REALLY that much fun!

In TWP we lost the artistry of the RMB but we are working to regain the skill … and the Board. A few of us patrol it regularly and attempt to keep it spam free; the work we do is good, clean, fun work. And all that work is paying off in some benefits to the region. Spammers know their recruiting ads won’t last long on our RMB … now it may just be TAO’s imagination but I think that fewer recruiters are choosing to waste their time in a region where the messages disappears so quickly. However, the greatest benefit is this: TAO’s is beginning to see the Game-Thrill rekindle in the brave few who are venturing to the RMB to defend the region and to bolster the Community. The work is bonding us into a cohesive group again. And the RMB isn’t about this forum or that forum … it’s about US, about OUR region and OUR RMB. In TWP, we are seeing new players join our forum because we have an ACTIVE presence on the RMB and ACTIVE = FUN.

TAO knows … this debate isn’t about spammers in the usual sense; it is about TNP’s AdSpam. As a few have already stated, a feeder AdSpamming in the other Game regions is not against the rules of the Game … it is old news, really. TAO remembers Lawn Flamingo breached that taboo over a year ago when he advertised for TEP and TWP [Did LF also advertise TP? TAO can’t remember.]. But is it wise to continue breaching that taboo today? The Mods have chosen to change the dynamics of the game and many of us are unsure of all the ramifications of these changes; it is still too early to tell the end results but the short term view looks like this … the Game now favors the Userites (Foundered regions) against the Feederites (Game regions). So it is against the Userites (the AdSpammers from the Foundered regions) that we must take the fight.

TAO has been advocating and organizing an ANTI-AdSpam movement that is Pan-Pacific in scope and Feederite in alignment … the Spam Slammers.

The goal of the Spam Slammers is to give the AdSpammers a dose of their own medicine. Spam Slammers will begin in their home Game region and travel (recruiter style) from Game region to Game region posting a Spam Slammer message . The Game regions we are considering for use as our theater of action are the Five Pacifics, the RR, and Lazarus. If we can put together teams of ten players, then a single Spam Slam team can clear a feeder's RMB in a matter of a few minutes … not with AdSpams but with polite conversations. And not just in one Feeder but in fact, ALL the FEEDERS, TRR, and Lazarus.

What new players want to see is ACTION and we all have to face the fact that until recently, the Game has been boring. The fact that there are Game changes shows the Mods agree and are also looking for change. TNP is facing change and is also looking for ACTION by hoping to entice a new crop of new players to grow “TNP-style”. The reason for the current TNP campaign is understandable but the cost in future cooperation among the Game regions may outweigh the benefits TNP hopes to achieve. Perhaps a better solution for TNP … for ALL Game regions … is to create an atmosphere of fun and activity on the region’s RMB and allow that enthusiasm for the Game to spill onto and into the new players born in the region.


In response to JAL's comment regarding the TOP 10 and the pro-PRP/Pacific nations ... That was really quite clever, IMO. If TAO had the good fortune to have any of the TAO Lands gain such honors in a Game Region, TAO would likely do the same. It is a plug for one thing while not detracting from the region on the region's RMB. And if your region doesn't want the the nastygram showing ...there is an easy fix; talk to the delegate and have him/her use a few Influence points to BANJECT the offender.
 
Hersfold, you say somewhere that logic dictates that if RMB recruiting was not effective it wouldn't be done. This an interesting application of the term logic. RMB is done not because it is effective, but because the recruiters are either lazy or don't know any better.

If you actually investigated the issue, you would find that 99% of RMB recruiters belong to new, small and inexperienced regions. The successful, large regions, such as The Lexicon and Gatesville do not advertise on the RMB, they send out telegrams. Any experienced recruiter will tell you (and several have) that this is the most effective method of recruitment. It is illogical to ignore actual fact-based evidence in favour of a "logical" assumption.
 
Here's my solution. Since the only recruiting adds a feeder region can control are their own recruitement ads placed in other feeder regions, and the placement of those ads can be controlled by the governments of those respective regions, it might be worth while to create a treaty whereby all feeders do not place recruitment ads in other feeder RMBs.

Eventually, by creating anti-spam treaties with other regions, those recruitment ads could be moved to a common off-game board to which every party to that treaty links to.

Any thoughts on this?

R
 
Tweedy:
Grosseschnauzer:
The answer is NO anyway. Past offenses show that you cannot be trusted with those privlidges
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Do you apply the same criteria to yourself in all the things you do?
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Tweedy that statement is not from me, but part of an admin edit. (I can only guess who since I edited the post for a unrelated reason before I was aware that edit was there.)

I would suggest however, that your response is not on the topic of "Recruiting on Feeder RMBs" as written, and I would suggest a rephrasing, or at least an acknowledgement that the above is not directed towards me.
 
The user "Ure's" posting ability has been suspended as it is a multiple account of the restricted user Tweedy. His creation of a new account was an attempt to circumvent restrictions placed on him for flaming and he has already begun the same with the account "Ure". His off topic posts will be removed.
 
As the person who has for now, headed up the Recruiting in the Lexicon I will offer the following thoughts:

RMB recruiting is ineffective.

In the early days of The Lexicon we took this route and saw a few nations join our region. At that time, recruiting was largely carried out by Insane Power who being the person he is asked himself why it was so ineffective and what we could do to improve response rates.

So, we turned to telegramming.

As far as possible within our recruitment team we send every newly founded nation a telegram making them aware of our region and inviting them to join.

Once they join they are presented with a huge array of opportunities to meet whatever their interests may be. We have an amazingly active forum where 400 posts a day is a quiet day.

In essence The Lexicon now has no use or need for RMB advertising...it's a waste of our recruiter's precious time.

On the other hand, speaking as one who for a long time made my home in a Feeder it sort of amuses me that people are so uptight about an RMB full of regional ads.

The Feeders contain in excess of 4000 nations. The founder regions are only permitted to post once every 24 hours and few are active enough to achieve even that.

If the Feederites, to use a Pacific term, want their RMBS why don't they use them?

It would be a relatively small thing for a small minority of the 1000's of nations in the region to use it for whatever it is they deem so important and the regional ads would hardly be there for any time.

Indeed during the time of mine an IP's Delegacy of TNP the RMB was not full of ads because we made sure that it was actually used by the natives of the region.

IP often comments to me that when s13 was down he found it astounding, yet amusing, that TNP's RMB still received no use! Whereas in The Lexicon our RMB became a hive of activity to make sure that all our nations knew exactly how to continue.

EDIT: With regard to Tweedy we have found in The Lexicon his behaviour is exemplary. In fact few there are aware that he has a bit of 'history'.

Sometimes if you give a dog a bad name it acts like a bad dog...
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Tweedy:
Grosseschnauzer:
The answer is NO anyway. Past offenses show that you cannot be trusted with those privlidges
Click to expand...
Do you apply the same criteria to yourself in all the things you do?
Click to expand...
Tweedy that statement is not from me, but part of an admin edit. (I can only guess who since I edited the post for a unrelated reason before I was aware that edit was there.)
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Yes, sorry. I didn't really feel like a complete post was neccessary, but that my support for that was. It should have tacked my name on the bottom.
 
As someone with vast recruiting experience I echo the statements of Blackshear, Cathyy et.al in that RMB recruiting is essentially a waste of time!! The posting is short-lived, rarely read and quite frankly blanket invitations do not really make anyone feel overly "special" to be invited!!

I found personalised telegrams worked best!!

As for the recruiting saga in TNP/TP all I can say is that if it started out apolitical it has moved to the political!! The comments from Hersfold in the Cabinet forum mention various things such as references to "despotism" that lead me to believe the underlying reason for the recruitment drive into other feeders was political!!

If the events occurred as Moo stated then the representatives of this region behaved apallingly!! My experiences with Flemingovia and Hersfold tend to lead me to believe Moo's account of things although I hope I am wrong!!

TNP always stood up for itself and its government system!! I find it disappointing that they do not afford this right to other regions!! If you cannot get people interested in your government system from a pool of 4000 nations with a steady influx of new nations every day then perhaps it is not the people but the system offered to them that is the concern!! Either that or it is not being advertised to the people in TNP well enough!!
 
This is just my humble opinion, but..............

I think this whole matter is an attempt to create a pseudo crisis with the intent of destabilising TNP. Bordom, in the form of idle hands are the workshop of the Devil, or so they say.

I think that there should be an inter-region agreement/treaty, as I stated earlier, to assure that RMB recruitment posts between feeder regions should be avoided. I think feeder regions are conspicuous enough and diverse enough in governmental forms that no advertizing is neccessary.

Feeder regions should cooperate with each other, not bicker. We have enough problems with user regions posting recruitment ads without having to worry about this matter escalating. Attempts to create chaos and disorder in TNP won't work any more because we've successfully put such things to bed.
 
I agree with Polts, in fact I think that TNP has the most steady influx of new nations, leading them here, is the only issue, besides, we should work on our own members first before we recruit outside.
 
Romanoffia:
This is just my humble opinion, but..............

I think this whole matter is an attempt to create a pseudo crisis with the intent of destabilising TNP. Bordom, in the form of idle hands are the workshop of the Devil, or so they say.

I think that there should be an inter-region agreement/treaty, as I stated earlier, to assure that RMB recruitment posts between feeder regions should be avoided. I think feeder regions are conspicuous enough and diverse enough in governmental forms that no advertizing is neccessary.

Feeder regions should cooperate with each other, not bicker. We have enough problems with user regions posting recruitment ads without having to worry about this matter escalating. Attempts to create chaos and disorder in TNP won't work any more because we've successfully put such things to bed.
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:ph34r:

There was no attempt to "destabilise" TNP or to create a "pseudo crisis." The matter has been resolved and comments like this only serve to further any lingering hard feelings. At this point in time the matter is done and over. The Pacific is hardly bored as we are still in the process of fleshing out the internal workings of the New Pacific Order; I would assume that TNP is also not bored as elections are fast approaching.

I agree, though, that in light of this incident that an agreement between feeders concerning RMB recruitment to avoid any future situations of this type.
 
I agree, though, that in light of this incident that an agreement between feeders concerning RMB recruitment to avoid any future situations of this type.
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I look forward to the reaching of such an accord.
 
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