Recruiting

Former English Colony

Former English Colony

InFECtious
-
-
-
-
Pronouns
she/her
TNP Nation
Former English Colony
Discord
Erastide
So... The Pacific has officially requested we cease recruiting in their region. From what Hersfold has said, he has no plans to cease.

So, I'm going to set my argument out here. Because I think we should take a vote, whether it's just in cabinet or if it has to be the RA. (If this should be moved, then feel free to move it)

So, the ideas.

1. Recruiting is perfectly legal.
There are no rules that prohibit TNP or any feeder from recruiting in the other feeders according to the recruiting rules.
2. Recruiting from other feeders is "wrong" (regardless of the backlash)
This is the one I'd most like to emphasize. We routinely complain about the "spam" on our board and find ways to get rid of it. As we're not a founded region, we have no choice in allowing people to post on our boards. And so, we are stuck with it. So the question comes, do we impinge on other regions that have the same problem and add to their load? Do you think the Pacifics should be united against spam (whether it's in principal or actually working together) or do you think it's every region for itself?

Personally, I prefer to be... "nice" to the other regions until they do something to us. In my view, it is the courteous thing to NOT recruit from other feeders. Yes, it’s just one small drop in the bucket, but it’s something that we can control.
3. The Backlash from the other feeders
The Pacific has already said they would consider continued recruiting a hostile act. And I believe TAO made a comment of disbelief that we would do such a thing. Do we *really* want to create this resentment in other regions? Do we want to encourage others to do even more recruiting from TNP in retaliation?



If you haven’t figured it out yet, I’m in favor of stopping recruitment on the RMB of other feeders. ;) I don’t think it’s effective enough to be truly worth the possible consequences. We should try contacting everyone already in TNP before we go looking elsewhere.

EDIT: Added request link
 
No, you shouldn't be posting here. :fish: (I took it out :P )

Anyways, I completely agree with Erastide. I, quite frankly, am amazed to learn that this has happened and I do think that we would all react similarly were another feeder to come over here and do so. The political motivation behind this also leaves me concerned.
 
I see little to indicate their government is anything but hostile to us, their own, or anyone not of their little clique. Even those towing their line are merely tolerable. It's impolite, but we still have the right to do it, and I for one feel we need to assert ourselves in that we, unlike many others, will not capitulate to their whims.
 
Recruiting in other feeders I dislike generally. I really am opposed to the way this has been hijacked by some as a way of attempting to strike out against the new regime in The Pacific and I strongly feel that this presents a significant danger to our regional interest not just with The Pacific but with the rest of the feeders as well.
 
What interest, specifically, does a peaceful, democratic region have with a brutally authoritarian regime? What, if any benefit do we have by acting as if we liked them? With due respect sir, I will not ever bow to them, nor will I expect anyone here to do so either.

They are outright used to having their way, and their way shall not be had here so long as I am.
 
Disclaimer: If I copy any information into this post from IRC logs, I do so in the name of regional security. Should the author of such information request that I do so, I will remove the direct quote and paraphrase as best I can.

The RMB ads were intended to serve as a recruitment drive for the Regional Assembly and forum. With elections coming up, I was haunted (for lack of a better word) by the memory of last election, when we did not have sufficent candidates to fill all positions. It is now too late for new RA members to run for anything other than the Security Council, but that is still a position new nations could use to get acquainted with the region and it's inner workings. Also, the more RA members we get, the more votes there are to be cast. If these new members stay on through August, they will be eligible to run in the elections then.

The main responsibility of a feeder region, as has been said many times before, possibly even by you, Erastide, is to help new nations get used to the game and find a region that suits them best. As such, it is legal, under NationStates rules, to post recruitment advertisements in feeder regions, as long as only one ad per region is posted per day. Our region has chosen to require that advertizers shorten their ads in an effort to make it easier to find messages posted by actual members of our region. This also makes it easier to find other recruitment ads, thus advancing our responsibilities as mentioned above. We still tolerate the ads, however. We do not, and cannot, disallow them.

As to the backlash from other feeders, I really don't see why backlash would even exist. The Pacific is the ONLY region to so much as raise an eyebrow over the ads. Their justification for ejecting me was not that I was spamming their RMB (their own members were doing a fine job of that themselves), but rather "subverting regional unity". I truly fail to see how this can possibly be a concern in a region as large as a feeder, when they get hundreds of similar ads every day, and their own Delegate is banning their citizens left and right. One would think that alone would cause enough resentment to make my ad look insignificant in comparison. I should note that when The Pacificians did complain, I invited them to "subvert" us in the same way. They, as a region, have as much right to advertise in our territory than we, as a region, have to do in theirs. If they do not wish to take us up on that offer, then that's their decision.

The other, much more important concern, is that we have been directly threatened by another region. We have been told, in no uncertain terms, that any further activity would be considered a hostile act. On IRC today, Mussolandia promised immediate action:
<Mussolandia> I will instruct Gatesville to recruit heavily from the North
Click to expand...
And to top it off, I was forcibly removed from their region while on a peaceful mission. These acts are far more hostile, in my opinion, than a single message that will vanish from all sight within a few minutes anyway.

So now the ball lies in our court. Erastide, a Deputy Minister, has called the cabinet to a vote concerning an activity which is entirely within my jurisdiction as Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs. I am rather offended that someone would be willing to override me in such a manner, but we have other matters to attend to. If we, as a Cabinet, vote to cease recruitment, we will be backing down to a dictatorial power. By voting to cease, we will be saying that our region is so weak that others may dictate it's internal policy with a simple threat. By voting to cease, we will be accepting that against which we fought so hard to overthrow - despotism and a lack of freedom. If the Pacific wishes to censor the voice of a free region, a region that has fought against all odds to be free, then it is my belief, my hope, that they shall not do so except by force. We will continue to act as a soverign region, a region that will act of it's own accord, and not by that of another. We will stay free.
 
I stand in solidarity with Hersfold and echo his sentiments in full. It is well within the powers of his office, and the response of the Pacific only blatantly makes the point I've been trying to make all week.
 
Hersfold:
So now the ball lies in our court. Erastide, a Deputy Minister, has called the cabinet to a vote concerning an activity which is entirely within my jurisdiction as Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.
Click to expand...
Not in the mood to answer the rest without swearing a bit, but quite honestly I have *NO* idea where I was supposed to voice my concerns and ask that the region decide an actual stance. If it's not supposed to be here, then move the damn thing to the appropriate area.
 
I support the continuing recruitment drive and I find the Pacific response to Hersfold appalling. Is there any sort of due process where you can appeal the banning?
 
It turns out I was not completely banned, only ejected momentarily. I can still move into The Pacific if I was so inclined to do so.

And having seen a copy of their laws, I highly doubt it. I'm not willing to legitimise it by appealing anyway.
 
Hersfold:
The main responsibility of a feeder region, as has been said many times before, possibly even by you, Erastide, is to help new nations get used to the game and find a region that suits them best. As such, it is legal, under NationStates rules, to post recruitment advertisements in feeder regions, as long as only one ad per region is posted per day. Our region has chosen to require that advertizers shorten their ads in an effort to make it easier to find messages posted by actual members of our region. This also makes it easier to find other recruitment ads, thus advancing our responsibilities as mentioned above. We still tolerate the ads, however. We do not, and cannot, disallow them.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've stated such a thing. And indeed, as part of that, it's essential that the Pacific exists and acts just as it has done. That's one way of playing the game. So in principal, it makes some sense to recruit from other regions because there are bound to be people on both sides that are somehow in the "wrong" feeder. But you're not targeting all of them in the hopes of finding those few. A RMB message targets a *small* percentage of the region, and quite often it's the people that are already committed to that region. After all, haven't we, in TNP, organized our own campaigns to get rid of spam off our board? We don't have the right to stop it, but we have every right to claim our space for ourselves, not other regions.

The other, much more important concern, is that we have been directly threatened by another region. We have been told, in no uncertain terms, that any further activity would be considered a hostile act. On IRC today, Mussolandia promised immediate action:
<Mussolandia> I will instruct Gatesville to recruit heavily from the North
Click to expand...
And to top it off, I was forcibly removed from their region while on a peaceful mission. These acts are far more hostile, in my opinion, than a single message that will vanish from all sight within a few minutes anyway.
Click to expand...
That is the Pacific posturing. That's how they operate. You're taking offense from a dictatorial region telling you frankly to get out when you come in as a recruiter? They applied their standard rules to you in terms of recruiters.

As to the instructing others to recruit... under your own logic why does it matter? The messages will vanish within a few minutes and there's only 10 allowed afterall.
 
True, but it was still intended as a threat against our soverignty, intended as a hostile act. I personally don't mind it much myself, it's only one more region, but the fact that they are willing to make threats against us should say something.

A RMB message targets a *small* percentage of the region, and quite often it's the people that are already committed to that region.
Click to expand...
:blink: What? An RMB message is out in public for everyone to see. How can it be directed at only a small percentage? If anything, it's the percentage that wants to leave, and so it's watching for a region that sounds good.
 
Haor Chall:
The reason being that this was politically motivated. It had bugger all to do with recruiting.

And that pisses me off.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to my ads or the Pacific's reaction? If you intend to accuse me of something, you may do so to my face, directly, rather than beating about the bush.

Recruitment ads are called that because their intent is to recruit. It had nothing to do with politics, and I have no idea why people keep saying that.
 
This needed its own post.

Hersfold:
If we, as a Cabinet, vote to cease recruitment, we will be backing down to a dictatorial power. By voting to cease, we will be saying that our region is so weak that others may dictate it's internal policy with a simple threat. By voting to cease, we will be accepting that against which we fought so hard to overthrow - despotism and a lack of freedom. If the Pacific wishes to censor the voice of a free region, a region that has fought against all odds to be free, then it is my belief, my hope, that they shall not do so except by force. We will continue to act as a soverign region, a region that will act of it's own accord, and not by that of another. We will stay free.
Click to expand...
*Former English Colony  :clap: for Hers' propaganda.
Seriously, this part scares me. It's where logic and reason got left behind.

The Pacific is another region, a fellow region, in NS. Do I agree with their government style? No. But I do believe they have the right to govern their region as they see fit. They have the right to refuse TNP a voice in their region by ejecting our recruiters.

They *also* have the right to request from our government the courtesy of not recruiting in their space. Yes, their request was phrased just like their government is set up. And I thought what Flem said in response to that was enough of TNP posturing. We have the right to ignore their request (or demand if you'd like), but the question is, should we? If TNP votes to not allow (or allow) recruiting in the other feeders it will not be a victory for "despotism". It would be showing that our democracy was working.

If Flemingovia had meekly said "Yes, sir" to BA when he told him to stop recruiting, that would have been one thing. Instead, we're holding a myriad of discussions and trying to work out what we want our position to be. *That's* TNP. This is how it's supposed to work. And whatever the outcome, it will not be a product of The Pacific, it will be a product of The NORTH Pacific.
 
The point remains that we would be caving in to a hostile demand, a hostile threat. I won't stand for it.

If you're willing to cave in to a foreign power, so be it. I can only hope that TNP is stronger than that.
 
Hersfold:
The point remains that we would be caving in to a hostile demand, a hostile threat. I won't stand for it.

If you're willing to cave in to a foreign power, so be it. I can only hope that TNP is stronger than that.
Click to expand...

That isn't your decision to make alone. As you said above, recruitment may come under the MoIIA but our foreign policy most definately does not- especially when you are attempting to drive us into conflict with another region.
 
Hersfold:
:blink: What? An RMB message is out in public for everyone to see. How can it be directed at only a small percentage? If anything, it's the percentage that wants to leave, and so it's watching for a region that sounds good.
Click to expand...
What percentage of the region do you think reads the RMB? Actually, I could have probably been stolen away from TNP before GB because I looked at the forum and didn't like it. But I didn't have anything better to do and blanket ads that weren't at all targetted to me seemed pointless.

Have you ever watched the regional happenings when ads were on there? And if people were actually going to the regions that were on the RMB? I rarely see anyone but the recruiters going to the regions being recruited for. Yes, it's possible people do go to regions based on the ads, but I think a TG campaign would be more effective.
 
That isn't your decision to make alone. As you said above, recruitment may come under the MoIIA but our foreign policy most definately does not- especially when you are attempting to drive us into conflict with another region.
Click to expand...

As I said in my official statement, I do NOT intend to drive us into conflict. I do NOT appreciate being falsely accused of warmongering, abuse of office, etc., and am one step from bringing someone to the courts for libel. I am TRYING to act in the best interests of the region.

What percentage of the region do you think reads the RMB? Actually, I could have probably been stolen away from TNP before GB because I looked at the forum and didn't like it. But I didn't have anything better to do and blanket ads that weren't at all targetted to me seemed pointless.
Click to expand...

As I already said, new nations looking for new regions could very well be reading them. And would you prefer that, something mostly unobtrusive, or a generic TG that is obviously cut-and-paste and tends to annoy you more than make you want to join?

Have you ever watched the regional happenings when ads were on there? And if people were actually going to the regions that were on the RMB? I rarely see anyone but the recruiters going to the regions being recruited for. Yes, it's possible people do go to regions based on the ads, but I think a TG campaign would be more effective.
Click to expand...

Logic would dictate that it wouldn't be done if it didn't work.
 
Hersfold:
As I said in my official statement, I do NOT intend to drive us into conflict. I do NOT appreciate being falsely accused of warmongering, abuse of office, etc., and am one step from bringing someone to the courts for libel. I am TRYING to act in the best interests of the region.
Click to expand...

Your actions and your words would seem to suggest otherwise. And so far you have done nothing which, as far as I can see, can be claimed to be in the interests of our region.

The point is, Hersfold, that it is NOT your responsiblity to act in this scenario. And yet you have done. I, for one, also do NOT appreciate the MoIIA trying to decide our foreign policy. In fact that would be a bit of an understatement, I'm absolutely furious.
 
Then impeach me for treason and get me banned.

It's not my fault they're getting so bent out of shape over a short message.
 
It is your fault when you inflame the situtation rather than handing the matter to those whose responsibility it is to deal with these things.

I also do not believe that you are either ignorant or incompetent and therefore doubt that you were unaware of the likely reaction you would receive from The Pacific.
 
What infuriates me, is that the very minister I work for has so little pride in his region so as to take such a blatant threat and insult from another region in stride. I question your loyalty, sir, that you would so rapidly capitulate to a foreign power, and allow *them* to dictate our policy, instead of us.
 
YOWSERS! Nice debate but lets all take a deep breath and step back for a sec. If anything lets just call a vote already whether to stop or not.

I vote to continue current recruiting methods.
 
I noticed that someone has called for a vote, but I want my two cents thrown in here as well.

I've had very little time to really grasp at this situation, but I have to agree with Haor Chall. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs should worry more about internal recruitment and immigration than others. As a matter or respect and common courtasy, we would not want The Pacific or an other feeder to recruit in our region without our (the government) consent eh? We most likely would be yabbering like bureaucrats such as in this case on if we were to get angry with The Pacific if they were resorting to the meathods used by small user-created regions. I can not fantom how we are unable to recruit from over 5,000 nations, but we can do it from around 22,000 nations (very rough estimate, forgive me) in the other feeders and the sinks. There are more nations in this region (be them main nations, puppets or inactives) than there are people who live in my town.

I am quite disappointed in the Minister's decision not to consult the Cabinet prior to this action. My own ministry would require comment from the Cabinet if it had anything other to do with standard defender-action against invaders. These actions would for example be Declaration of War and military action against a sovereign region. This is the struggle that this region is not prepared to rush in to I find. Anyone who accuses me of being unloyal should know me better. And how dare those who accuse members of this cabinet for not being loyal if they have views different to theirs. That is disgusting and must be stopped.

I wish to offer advice to the Minister in question. As I have stated outside Cabinet areas, I find it now neccessary that the Ministry of Immigration and Internal Affairs have internal-recruitment done by a more structured and formal committee or body that can better provide information to the people of our great region than one man alone. I have to respect Hersfold for keeping to his guns on this, however, I feel that his views are not along those other voting-members of this Cabinet.

Eras summed it up nicely in this one paragraph:
Instead, we're holding a myriad of discussions and trying to work out what we want our position to be. *That's* TNP. This is how it's supposed to work. And whatever the outcome, it will not be a product of The Pacific, it will be a product of The NORTH Pacific.
Click to expand...

Thus, I vote AGAINST continuing recruitment in other feeder/sink regions.
 
Cthul Murgos:
What infuriates me, is that the very minister I work for has so little pride in his region so as to take such a blatant threat and insult from another region in stride.  I question your loyalty, sir, that you would so rapidly capitulate to a foreign power, and allow *them* to dictate our policy, instead of us.
Click to expand...

What infuriates me is that you obviously haven't read a single thing that I have written.

Well, no, what really infuriates me is that our MoIIA has taken it upon himself to decide our foreign policy. Just, I imagine, as he would quite rightly be pissed off with me if I decided to go around giving people RA membership. That is what has pissed me off. I haven't said a word about what we do now, mainly because we're in between a rock and a hard place, we can't win as we've already lost.

Hersfolds actions have already damaged TNP and either way out of this, whether to back down or not will damage us further, abeit in different ways. So what do we do? Back down and appear weak? Or try to defend the indefensible?


And for the record, I am completely against recruiting using posting in the RMB of the other feeders. I consider it to be completely hypocritical, I think we would be unhappy at the other feeders if they were to do it to us and furthermore as has been said by many people- it is an ineffectual method of recruiting anyway especially in the case, where the potential cost far out ways the benefit.
 
I would just like to offer my support for the decision of the MoIIA. If other nations can recruit in our region, why can't we recruit in others'? As long as our ads are not unreasonably long (less than 15 lines) we are going by our own guidelines (which are not even enforced in other feeders).

Though I would have liked this to have been brought up in the Cabinet, so we could have discussed it, I am surprised The Pacific is so upset about this. Whether or not it is effective, I fail to see why feeders lack the right to advertise, as every other founder created region has.

The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs has every right to encourage people to move to our region (that's what immigration is), and I think this decision is within his jurisdiction.

EDIT: spelling :blush:
 
Two wrongs do not make a right Ator. We don't like adspam so why should we add to another feeders adspam ourselves? Doesn't that seem a little off to you? It isn't a question of whether we have a right to do so, rather more whether it is right for us to do so.

Anyway, using your logic, it would be acceptable for The East Pacific (for example) to post adspam of more than 15 lines in our RMB as long as it complied with their own laws? That isn't the way it works, we try to enforce our own regulations (15 line limit etc) so why should we complain when another feeder does the same- enforce their own regulations?
 
Haor Chall:
Two wrongs do not make a right Ator. We don't like adspam so why should we add to another feeders adspam ourselves? Doesn't that seem a little off to you? It isn't a question of whether we have a right to do so, rather more whether it is right for us to do so.

Anyway, using your logic, it would be acceptable for The East Pacific (for example) to post adspam of more than 15 lines in our RMB as long as it complied with their own laws? That isn't the way it works, we try to enforce our own regulations (15 line limit etc) so why should we complain when another feeder does the same- enforce their own regulations?
Click to expand...
Does the Pacific have a rule on the number of lines in an ad? If so, I'd be happy to comply with them.

Two wrongs? I never said advertisements, when under 15 lines, is wrong. I don't believe it is. Even the game rules say it is allowed. Sure, I don't like it, but who does.

If a feeder declares that such advertisements are against the rules, they'd be wrong. They'd have the right to eject recruiters (under the new game rules), but they can't blame us for advertising as (nearly) all other regions do. What difference is it if we advertise in The Pacific than if a user region advertises in The Pacific.

Perhaps we could welcome all feeders to advertise in our region, as long as they abide by the 15 line limit.

I'm just saying that it is unfair to treat feeder recruiters differently than founder-region recruiters.
 
Stop the arguing.

From my Ministry Statement topic:

Having given this some thought, I have come to realize that I was mistaken in continuing to pursue this course of action with The Pacific. If they are to be truly hostile towards us for such a minor action, I cannot risk throwing our region into a war over it. I will continue to recruit in the other regions, as there has been nothing to indicate that they care, much less even noticed, the ads. I apologize to everyone for creating such an issue over this, particularly the ones I may have insulted or accused during the course of the last 24 hours. I will make an effort to contact BlackAdder and apologize for the incident, and attempt to wok out a way in which we will still be able to recruit without disrupting their region. If it is decided that this is not possible, then I will give it up. I can only hope that this gesture, intended as an act of goodwill and understanding, will help mend the recent rift between our regions.

If anyone still wants me impeached for treason, go right on ahead.
Click to expand...

I want to say that this decision was not made lightly, and I feel as though I am backing down to a hostile threat. However, since so many of those people I thought were friends and allies have so quickly turned against me, and it does appear that our region would be in danger if I were to continue, I will not sacrifice my region and credibility by continuing onward. I apologize to those who supported me, and thank you very much for your loyalty.

To everyone else, I say again. If you think I took this to far, and that this is too late, try me for treason. But I will fight to the last breath - mine or yours.
 
I would say, offhand, that there would be no basis for treason charges against you Hers. I would be astounded if anyone brought it up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top