Immigration

[Grenval]

So what do you all think of the immigration issues facing the United States right now?

It seems to me that there are four options on the table.

The first is to criminalize illegal immigration. Frankly, I consider this a racist, provincial policy that will ultimately hurt the Aryan America it seeks to protect.

The second option is a guestworker program. Somehow I don't think such a program will actually work, considering the percentage of immigrants that would attempt to stay in the United States, promoting a backlash. You can see this sort of thing in Europe, particularly France and Germany, where the radical immigrant population has divided the country internally and increased racism.

The third option is to continue the status quo. This would be problematic, considering the status quo isn't much better than the first option, given the little minutemen protecting our white women from wetback rapists. What would we do without them? However, the status quo hasn't significantly altered the economy or terrorist threat, which might be a reason to keep it, consider the other options may very well result in just as much racism in addition to other, currently unknown side effects.

And the fourth option, which I personally support, is an open border policy. I've read quite a bit of critical literature on the subject, and I believe an open border policy is the only way to transform the nationalism we see right now in the system. Of course, this risks economic depression and insecurity due to terrorism, but I don't consider those arguments credible to begin with.

So just throwing some things out there. I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject, living in Texas and all, and I would like to hear what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[mr_sniffles]

I love how everyone ignores the fifth option: Make Mexico a better place to live with real education, healthcare, and jobs so they don't risk their lives to do our menial work. I've yet to hear of Canadians traveling hundreds of km by foot or packed into crates just to work in the US.

It's insane to me, how we think of everything and anything from complicated legalese infested categorizations to building a gigantic wall but not bettering the lives of others.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Wouldn't illegal immigration be a criminal offence already by the very nature that it is illegal?! Perhaps you meant that the law would be enforced as option 1?!

Open border policy is idiocy, in my opinion!! A nation has the right to choose who does and does not enter their country!! Nothing wrong with contructive nationalism at all!! and saying that potential openings for terrorism and economic depression are not credible is to blind yourself to the realities of the policy you preach!!

Immigration is fine, provided the people that migrate to a country respect the laws and culture of the country they move to!! They should adapt to the new country and become part of it rather than set up ethnic enclaves!! Migrants should be skilled and able to speak the language of the nation they move to!! At the very least they should make efforts to learn the language after arrival to improve their prospects of employment and education!! That way they become self sufficient and integrate into society far more easily!! There is nothing racist in asking migrants to "fit in" to their adopted country!! Freedom to practise religion is fine provided it does not encroach on the rights of the people of their adopted country to live as they always have!!

I believe that Mr.Sniffles idea and maintaining the status quo with regards to US Immigration are the combination that will make the best of the situation for all involved!! Improving the quality of life in Mexico (or anywhere else where migrants come from) will maen that they have no need to migrate to the US illegally, if at all. Simply throwing money at the problem will not solve it!! Education is the most important way to help people improve their living standards!!

 

[Grenval]

Indeed, mr_sniffles, you have a point, although I'm not sure the U.S. needs any more ventures in nation-building right now.

Wouldn't illegal immigration be a criminal offence already by the very nature that it is illegal?! Perhaps you meant that the law would be enforced as option 1?!

Yes. But the legislation also calls for a wall, harsher penalties, and it would criminalize those who aid illegal immigrants, for instance, the Catholic Church, which is why the U.S. Bishops are up in arms.

Open border policy is idiocy, in my opinion!! A nation has the right to choose who does and does not enter their country!! Nothing wrong with contructive nationalism at all!! and saying that potential openings for terrorism and economic depression are not credible is to blind yourself to the realities of the policy you preach!!

That is rather reactionary, Poltsamaa. If you have any actual reasons why increasing immigration would hurt the economy and promote terrorism, please tell me. I have researched both issues, and there is little reliable evidence to support either claim.

For example, terrorists do not migrate here from Mexico illegally. Al-Qaeda is known for using legal means to enter the United States and they are usually enter from European countries where they operate cells. They do not come in from Mexico, because despite what Bill O'Reilly would have you believe, the FBI is watching Mexico for terrorists.

As for the economy, that argument is simply false. The U.S. has one of the lowest unemployments in history and one of the highest economic standings in history. There is a projected worker-shortfall over the next several decades. And more importantly, illegal immigrants simply do not drain the system. Because they are illegal, they only affect education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care systems. Compared to your white, homeless drunk on welfare and state-funded drug programs, that is nothing. Moreover, illegal immigrants use fake Social Security numbers, which the government can tax without administrating other services. In other words, the government forces illegal immigrants to pay taxes with the promise of not deporting them. And finally, the productivity of illegal immigration averages much higher than the average citizen, at lower cost to business. This does raise some questions as to labor protections, but for all you raging capitalists, that means cheaper goods for the consumer.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Yes. But the legislation also calls for a wall, harsher penalties, and it would criminalize those who aid illegal immigrants, for instance, the Catholic Church, which is why the U.S. Bishops are up in arms.

People who aid and abet criminal activities should be punished!! Whether they are the Catholic Church or the Ku Klux Klan it make no difference!!

That is rather reactionary, Poltsamaa.  If you have any actual reasons why increasing immigration would hurt the economy and promote terrorism, please tell me.  I have researched both issues, and there is little reliable evidence to support either claim.

For example, terrorists do not migrate here from Mexico illegally.  Al-Qaeda is known for using legal means to enter the United States and they are usually enter from European countries where they operate cells.  They do not come in from Mexico, because despite what Bill O'Reilly would have you believe, the FBI is watching Mexico for terrorists. 

As for the economy, that argument is simply false.  The U.S. has one of the lowest unemployments in history and one of the highest economic standings in history.  There is a projected worker-shortfall over the next several decades.  And more importantly, illegal immigrants simply do not drain the system.  Because they are illegal, they only affect education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care systems.  Compared to your white, homeless drunk on welfare and state-funded drug programs, that is nothing.  Moreover, illegal immigrants use fake Social Security numbers, which the government can tax without administrating other services.  In other words, the government forces illegal immigrants to pay taxes with the promise of not deporting them.  And finally, the productivity of illegal immigration averages much higher than the average citizen, at lower cost to business.  This does raise some questions as to labor protections, but for all you raging capitalists, that means cheaper goods for the consumer.

My arguments were not against increased immigration, they were against "open border immigration" that you stated was your remedy for the problem of illegal immigration!! Allowing people to freely reside in the US without any checks is inviting disaster!! You are aware of the current situation with regards to terrorist organisations and their desire to set up terror cells in the US and elsewhere in the western world?! While they are still able to do so to a small extent under current laws, an open immigration policy would be the perfect platform for terror groups to flood the US with operatives completely unchecked!! Afterall, you cannot have an open border policy and have the people migrating to the US checked for criminal records and character otherwise it is not an open border policy at all!! If there is an open border with Mexico there is nothing to stop operatives walking into the US via Mexico?!

As for the economic situation, the immigrants will be mostly unskilled, unable to speak English and therefore take time and money to integrate into society!! Who will foot the bill for this?! What you mention fits well with a trickle of illegal immigrants, not a flood of people seeking a better life in the US with an open border!! Large groups of people with limited job prospects and low incomes tend to increase crime levels in the areas they live!! Where do you think all these migrants will live?! They have little money and no job when they arrive?! I'd much prefer efforts be directed at improving the situation in Mexico to reduce the desire of people there to illegally migrate to the US!!

 

[mr_sniffles]

Indeed, mr_sniffles, you have a point, although I'm not sure the U.S. needs any more ventures in nation-building right now.

There's more to nation building than dropping the 101st airborne and bombing people back to the stone age. If the United States properly taxed Capital Gains, dropped their malicious subsidies to farmers, advocated a global minimum wage, took on the private education systems and made public education competable, and became a world leader in promoting the environmental industry then the world would be a much better place.

But instead the economic policy is stuck on the imperialistic Washington Consensus which places the almighty dollar above all else, creates a race to the bottom in terms of wages and benefits, and makes countries like Mexico nothing more than a third world playground and waste site for us.

As for what Polts has stated so far; yes assimilation is racist because it states that other cultures are inferior and obsolete thus they must become more like us.

Canada has an open border policy and our biggest concern when it comes to a lack of unity is the fear of Quebec leaving not immigrants stirring trouble. Capitalism depends on the workers to be the tools but since the western world boasts one of the best education systems in the planet, we depend on immigrants to fill jobs that most educated natives don't want. So when people who don't even speak the language are so-called "stealing" jobs from natives then it is just an example of Capitalism at work, where the ones most qualified who will work for the lowest wage wins. And if I had to choose between a highschool drop-out who's fucked up every opportunity given to them or a Mexican who's traveled a dangerous thousand of kms in search of a better life, I'm picking the Mexican!

If what you've said about poverty and crime being hand in hand then we should also provide opportunities to our own poor, no matter their nationality!

Immigrants are not the problem, neo-liberal economics is. The economics which create conflicts in third world countries and drive people to flee to havens. As for the poor natives being victimized by these foreign bogeymen; the United States has benefited so much from the cheap labour, it's disgusting. Most states, even uber-liberal California, have made it a goal to deny illegal immigrants healthcare, welfare, and government services. Even drivers licences! Illegal immigration is created by our policies and we benefit from their sweaty bloody toil. Politicians win by striking up nationalistic fervour, gun manufacturers win by selling fear and more guns, and massive corporations flaunt their old South orders unto a new Northern horizons. The problem isn't too much taxes from citizens going to immigrants, it's the lack therof!

Since immigrants are needed (in other countries like Canada and most of Western Europe) to not only fill jobs that don't appease natives but the jobs left by retiring baby boomers, we should not see programs that promote bilingualism, labour integration, healthcare, and education, as a boon. But an investment. Case in point, Spanish cultural industries is a booming economy in the United States. Being fluent in Spanish and English more than puts the foot in the door in states like California and New York and recognizes the growing diversity of the new global market. In Toronto and Vancouver, you're almost guaranteed a job from McDonalds to Advertising if you can communicate in both Cantonese and English (and are qualified of course).

 

[Grenval]

Although what mr_sniffles has said is wonderful, I would like to add one thing.

An open border policy is a term of art. It would be equivalent to current trade practices, although in this case, the commodities are human beings. (I hate to use that as an example, but it really is the best analogy.) Obviously there would be oversight, background checks, the rapists and murderers would not be allowed to enter, etc. But for a majority of immigrants, after passing a simple background test, they could come into the United States legally and, if desired, begin working towards citizenship

As much as I would like to advocate an open border policy as you first perceived, Poltsamaa, unfortunately, we live in a world of risks, as you have said, and I am not so idealistic as to ignore practicality.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Expecting migrants to assimilate and fit in to the culture of the nation that have migrated too is not racist at all and has nothing to do with any "superiority" of any culture over another!! People migrate for a reason, if their old home was so perfect they would not leave!! The pay-off for the new life they lead is to fit into their new country!! Learn the language, learn job skills and contribute not just to their ethnic community but to the nation as a whole!!

If I were to migrate to another country I would do my utmost to fit into their culture and system!! Not because their system and culture is superior, but because I have moved to their country and should respect their culture and society!! The whole "racism" line is a tired and overused one!!

 

[AlHoma]

5 points on this topic

1. I live in texas so I have a front row seat to the "International Highway". The supporters who claim that the illegals help stimulate the economy is BULL. The spend very little money here and send 90% of it back to their families. It's like a piramid scheme with immigration (One gets here, sends money home for others to get here, and then gets a cut of their "earnings").

2. Look at the "Project Minutemen" group who sit near the border and only call the border patrol when they see illegals crossing the border.

3. A wall would be just fine and dandy with me. I'm for the 30ft high, 10 feet wide wall.

4. The underinsured/uninsured illegals drain the indigent care services and cause insurance rates to go up for those of us who pay taxes and insurence premiums.

5. For those of a literary mind, go read "Teeth of the tiger" by Tom Clancy. Plotline involves mideast terrorists getting into America with guns by traversing the Southern border.

I know this might seem xenophobic, but you know what, I care about me first. I care about my life first. When I work and buy nice things only to have them devalued by some immigrant causing an accident I get mightly upset.

 

[Grenval]

1. I live in texas so I have a front row seat to the "International Highway".  The supporters who claim that the illegals help stimulate the economy is BULL.  The spend very little money here and send 90% of it back to their families.  It's like a piramid scheme with immigration (One gets here, sends money home for others to get here, and then gets a cut of their "earnings").

4. The underinsured/uninsured illegals drain the indigent care services and cause insurance rates to go up for those of us who pay taxes and insurence premiums.

Did you not read anything I said? Those arguments are not supported by any objective statistics. Individuals buying televisions is not the sole stimulus of the economy. There is also the paying taxes, renting apartments, not to mention the jobs immigrants have, which are essential to our economy. You are only considering the economic effects of immigration within a narrow scope that does not accurately reflect the reality of the U.S. markets.

The same goes for your fourth point. The so-called "drain" is minimal compared to the good little white Americans who smoke crack and still receive free government food stamps. If you want to lower taxes and insurance premiums, you should start at the source: capitalism. Otherwise, you are just creating a band-aid solution to a growing epidemic.

5. For those of a literary mind, go read "Teeth of the tiger" by Tom Clancy.  Plotline involves mideast terrorists getting into America with guns by traversing the Southern border.

Tom Clany does not count as literature. And it is even farther away from fact.

 

[mr_sniffles]

I know this might seem xenophobic, but you know what, I care about me first. I care about my life first. When I work and buy nice things only to have them devalued by some immigrant causing an accident I get mightly upset.

Well hey you won the genetic lottery, screw everyone else right? And you wonder why people feel the way they do about Texans...

What've you said has basically summed up everything I said before: you get to live the way you do which causes people in Mexico risk life and limb to come to America. You get to live comfortably on the backs of others and you love it, your products don't get devalued because of immigrants causing trouble but by foreigners working in poorly ventilated shacks for pennies a day. Buying into the same line which perpetuates the same problem. Gun manufacturers sell more guns, FOX gets more ratings on why non-white people are the problem, and politicians win more votes on the Keep America American. (Old South order's new Northern horizon.)

As for the rest, it is the biggest piece of tripe I have ever read. Bump me if you actually want to read my response on the regurgitated FOX trash you call an opinion.

 

[mr_sniffles]

Expecting migrants to assimilate and fit in to the culture of the nation that have migrated too is not racist at all and has nothing to do with any "superiority" of any culture over another!! People migrate for a reason, if their old home was so perfect they would not leave!! The pay-off for the new life they lead is to fit into their new country!! Learn the language,  learn job skills and contribute not just to their ethnic community but to the nation as a whole!!

If I were to migrate to another country I would do my utmost to fit into their culture and system!! Not because their system and culture is superior, but because I have moved to their country and should respect their culture and society!! The whole "racism" line is a tired and overused one!!

So how do you view the idea of multiculturalism? How do you think a country like Switzerland exists, where there are FOUR major languages and cultures separated into somewhere around twenty-two different self-governing Cantons?

You keep viewing Nationality as a static concept, us or them idea. It's not like that at all, you can contribute without assimilation. Do you completely reject the notion of a mosaic of different cultures creating one cohesive nationality?

It would be equivalent to current trade practices, although in this case, the commodities are human beings. (I hate to use that as an example, but it really is the best analogy.) Obviously there would be oversight, background checks, the rapists and murderers would not be allowed to enter, etc. But for a majority of immigrants, after passing a simple background test, they could come into the United States legally and, if desired, begin working towards citizenship

Of course referring to human beings as "investments" is troubling but this capitalism we're talking about. Happiness and good society is property and privilege. And no, I'm not socialist (more post-left anarchist) but yeah that's the reality of situation where money and convenience is the sole goal in life.

 

[Poltsamaa]

So how do you view the idea of multiculturalism?

Multiculturalism is a buzzword of a failed concept!! It has never worked and never will!! Take a look at ethnic violence across the globe..France for example!! Take a look at ethnic division in the former Yugoslavia!!

How do you think a country like Switzerland exists, where there are FOUR major languages and cultures separated into somewhere around twenty-two different self-governing Cantons?

The fact that the cantons of Switzerland are self-governing to a large extent means that they all have different laws!! The French part of Switzerland is different from the Italian speaking canton and the German speaking cantons!! Switzerland has always been a country on the crossroads of Europe's languages, French, German and Italian, hence they have separate cantons each with their preferred language and unique laws!!

You keep viewing Nationality as a static concept, us or them idea. It's not like that at all, you can contribute without assimilation. Do you completely reject the notion of a mosaic of different cultures creating one cohesive nationality?

I do reject a mosaic of different cultures forming one cohesive nationality when some parts of the mosaic do not respect their new country, its lwas or its people!! If one or two pieces of the mosaic do not fit, the mosaic is worthless!! Again, I refer you to the former Yugoslavia, the ethnic tensions in France, the UK and various other countries across Europe as well as to a lesser extent here in Australia!! Multiculturalism is a politically correct ideal supplanted onto society and one that has failed and will continue to do so because despite all the crap, people from different cultures clash!! some more than others but they clash!! Resolution of these clashess is by integration and assimilation of migrants into the nation's society, not by expecting the majority to surrender their culture in to appease a migrant community!!

It would be equivalent to current trade practices, although in this case, the commodities are human beings. (I hate to use that as an example, but it really is the best analogy.) Obviously there would be oversight, background checks, the rapists and murderers would not be allowed to enter, etc. But for a majority of immigrants, after passing a simple background test, they could come into the United States legally and, if desired, begin working towards citizenship

How would they work towards citizenship?! By learning the language and obtaining job skills?! Or by hanging around long enough within an ethnic enclave and becoming a citizen by succession?!

Of course referring to human beings as "investments" is troubling but this capitalism we're talking about. Happiness and good society is property and privilege. And no, I'm not socialist (more post-left anarchist) but yeah that's the reality of situation where money and convenience is the sole goal in life.

Humans are resources in a business sense, hell, they even refer to departments that employ people as the Human Resources Department over here!! Happiness is finding somewhere where your hard work is rewarded and you and your family are safe!! There are plenty of people with relatively little who are happy and plenty of miserable peope with a lot!! If the place where the best chance to be happy is another country then migration is an option!! However, part of migrating to a new country is fitting into that country and adapting rather than requiring the country or community to adapt to you!!

 

[Hersfold]

Multiculturalism is a buzzword of a failed concept!! It has never worked and never will!! Take a look at ethnic violence across the globe..France for example!! Take a look at ethnic division in the former Yugoslavia!!

If I may just point you to this topic for a moment, that may put at least a small dent in that argument.

And calm down, people.

 

[Poltsamaa]

You are comparing an internet game to real life?! Maybe if the Serbs, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and ethnic Albanians all played NS then they'd all get along despite centuries of hatred and fighting?!

There are exceptions to every rule, Muslims who are friends with Christians etc but on the grand scale the supplanting of a foreign culture into another and asking the original culture to adapt to the new one while not asking the same of the supplanted culture is what causes tensions to overflow!!

NationStates is not multicultural as it does not really have a culture other than politics!! People tend to congregate in regions of like-minded people with the exception of the feeders!! The fact that the feeders are the most tumultuous of the regions in NS supports my argument rather than dents it in any way!!

I'm not sure who you are asking to calm down as nobody here has posted anything remotely in anger!!

 

[mr_sniffles]

How is Yugoslavia and France examples of Multiculturalism? Yugoslavia was a country with its borders drawn up by foreign powers, add in hundred of years divide and conquer politics with repression then you get the mess you have now. In fact, I'll argue that its nationalist minded people that started the conflicts. The whole argument about the lie of us and against them, our nation, our land is what creates these conflicts.

Hailing from Austrailia and me from Canada we both realize the limitations of such arguments, our homes on Native lands. Not directed at anyone but I find most anti-immigrationist feel that they're scared of becoming the Indians. Where other people swarm in and end up displacing them and the fact of the matter is, if you think it's my culture or nothing then it will surely happen.

The French are staunch supporters of assimilation, look how much public money they put into preserving their language. Both are examples of assimilation gone horribly wrong. The French in fact have to start investing into integration programs and racial sensitivity training to clean up their immigration mess.

Resolution of these clashess is by integration and assimilation of migrants into the nation's society, not by expecting the majority to surrender their culture in to appease a migrant community!!

I think this outlines our philosophical differences. You find immigrant cultures invasive, why I don't know which lead to my initial assumption of you thinking other cultures were inferior and/or obsolete. I feel we have much to learn from other cultures, no one better or worst than the other. Multiculturalism is about thinking globally and acting locally, about understanding the limitations of humanity not races. Humans came first, race later.

And I stand by my Switzerland example, they do have a federal government which does not break down into ethnic squabbles but are filled with politicians who can speak all four languages and seeks to lead the country based on their collective desires.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Again, you misrepresent what I say to be anti-immigration!! I am not anti-immigration at all and have never stated I was!! What I do believe is that people who migrate to a country should do what they can to fit in to the culture of the nation they move to!! Yugoslavia is an example of how different cultures clash!! Yugoslavia was formed and promoted as a multicultural nation of Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Macedonians as well as other smaller ethnic groups!! Despite all the smokescreens the tensions from the clash of these groups simmered over!! You did not address France or any of the other European countries that currently have problems with migrant communities that have not fitted in to the culture of those countries!! I take it you concede that is an example of the failure of multiculturalism!!

I have no fear of "being the Indian"!! I see no real reason for a nation's government to actively and deliberately sacrifice the culture of that country to please a minority of migrants!! It should be the other way around with migrants adapting to the culture of their adopted home!!

Having people from diverse backgrounds is fine, provided all respect the laws and way of life of the country they moved to for a better life!! You feeble attempts to lable me racist would be better directed at the true argument I am making, not the one you want to create!!

Plenty of migrants have adapted and fitted in to Australian culture!! Greeks, Italians and other post-war European migrants have adapted to our way of life, accepted our laws and contributed positively to our society!! Yet, some migrants refuse to accept the laws and culture of their new home and that is unacceptable!! These people chose to come to their adopted country, they have a choice to leave if it is not to their liking!!

As for Switzerland, I'm sure the French speaking and German speaking cantons do tend to squabble over things within the government, much like English speaking and French speaking parts of Canada!!

Multiculturalism is not simply the recognition of many cultures, it is the formation of mini-cultures within a country that are distinct and separate!! It is tribalism that separates people based on their ethnicity!! If we are all humans first then there is no need to recognise separate cultures, just the laws of the land!! Which is all I ask!!

 

[mr_sniffles]

I never once called you an anti-immigrationist, when I say NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE, I mean not directed at anyone including Poltsamaa. Please read my comments thoroughly before you reply.

If you read what I wrote then you would see clear examples naming BOTH France and Yugoslavia. You find the dissolution of Austria-Hungary, merciless invasion by the soviets and dictatorial rule by Tito an example of cultures forming together as an example of Multiculturalism? Because as I've always stated, it's not so. IT IS THE EXAMPLE OF FAILED POLICIES OF ASSIMILATION THAT DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AND SHUFFLE THEM OFF TO SLUMS THAT CREATE THE RIOTS IN FRANCE AND HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT IN WESTERN EUROPE.

Bringing up examples of cultures clashing has nothing to do with what I've said, like you've said:

Multiculturalism is not simply the recognition of many cultures, it is the formation of mini-cultures within a country that are distinct and separate!! It is tribalism that separates people based on their ethnicity!! If we are all humans first then there is no need to recognise separate cultures, just the laws of the land!! Which is all I ask!!

How isn't what you're advocating an example of tribalism when you differentiate between pure Nationalities and not force them to change to suit others benefit? The laws of the land are a reflection of the society, you're still demanding they conform no matter the cost.

Not once have I called you a racist so if you need to devolve to that level then we can end this debate now.

 

[Poltsamaa]

You mean, you didn't say this?!

As for what Polts has stated so far; yes assimilation is racist because it states that other cultures are inferior and obsolete thus they must become more like us.

It names me and states my beliefs as racist even though you grossly misrepresent what assimilation means!! Are you saying that stating my beliefs are racist is not labelling me racist?!

As for when an argument ends, it is when people use caps and turn arguments into uncontrolled rants such as your above post!!

You mentioned Yugoslavia but not France in any detail!! Seemed like you left it alone for the reasons I mentioned!!

The north african migrants in France were not assimilated into French society, they were kept separate and encouraged to remain separate based on ethnicity and religion!! The fact that the migrants were not integrated into society in France created the divide and created the animosity between the French and the migrants!! Lack of assimilation creates ghettos, not assimilation!! Saying the opposite makes no sense at all!! How can integrating people into society in a country isolate them into slums?!

As for Australia and Canada being "native lands"!! Every land in the world is a "native land"!! Civilisations were conquered over and over throughout Europe yet there are no claims to native title on land!! Why is that any different to the indigenous peoples of Australia and Canada being conquered?!

Finally, I do not support tribalism, I support the right of a nation and its citizens to protect their way of life be it from aggression such as war or through migrants who are unwilling to adapt to their new home!! Tribalism is the separation of people within a country into separate groups according to race and/or religion!! That is what multiculturalism represents!! Divisiveness!! Facilitating divisiveness while preaching unity is the flaw in multiculturalism and the reason it is a failure!! The aboriginal people of Australia lived in tribes, they were all aboriginal but the tribes were separate entities!! Likewise, in Australian society, multiculturalism promotes tribalism based on the origin and/or religion of migrants to the country!! Legally, they are all Australian citizens but multiculturalism advocates prefer to treat them as small groups dependent on ethnicity which is splitting the people of the country into tribes!! I cannot make it any clearer than that!!

 

[Hersfold]

This discussion is beginning to get out of hand. Both of you please calm down and cease with the name-calling, whether it was intended or otherwise.

 

[Grenval]

This discussion is beginning to get out of hand. Both of you please calm down and cease with the name-calling, whether it was intended or otherwise.

Hersfold has obviously never seen a Red Liberty Alliance versus The New Meritocracy thread.

 

[Poltsamaa]

I haven't called anyone names!!

 

[Haor Chall]

Hersfold has obviously never seen a Red Liberty Alliance versus The New Meritocracy thread.

No, Hersfold is just a better adminstrator than the RLA admins.

 

[Hersfold]

Hersfold has obviously never seen a Red Liberty Alliance versus The New Meritocracy thread.

No, Hersfold is just a better adminstrator than the RLA admins.

Aww....

Edit for Polts: Not that I've seen, no, but I wasn't really pointing fingers just yet. Carry on.

 

[Grenval]

Hersfold has obviously never seen a Red Liberty Alliance versus The New Meritocracy thread.

No, Hersfold is just a better adminstrator than the RLA admins.

The only Red Liberty Alliance versus The New Meritocracy debates happen because Eli, Winnipeg, and Soigacas let them.

Yet strangely enough, it's the Red Liberty Alliance that is always right...

 

[Poltsamaa]

Yet strangely enough, it's the Red Liberty Alliance that is always right...

And here is was thinking you lot were lefties!!

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

Segueing back to the immigration topic for a moment...

!!WARNING! MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!!

I think the massive influx of illegal aliens and subsequent 'amnesty' for illegal aliens in the US would be a great boon for Corporate America and produce a great economy benefitting Corporate interests!

Let me flesh out my logic for saying this. If we open up the borders and, in fact, do away with any benefits that US citizenship has, and introduce incentives for more illegal aliens to flood across our borders, there will be loads of money to be made! Both the Democrats and Republicans are, regardless of what they claim, are offering amnesty to the 12 million illegals in the US - and all for them and their corproate buddies to make a friggin' mint in the process. And, of course, we know that what is good for corporate America is good for America, because Corporate America is America. When you come to realize that fact, then you too will support a mass invasion of no-skill, low wage illegal immigrants into the US!

First, we let in every single illegal alien into the country - they will work for $2, maybe $3 per day, tops. Just think of all the money Corporate America will save by firing all those pesky US citizens who demand minimum wages and benefits, damned leeches they are, and replacing them with near slave labor that costs virtually nothing. Think about it! Now big US corporations will no longer have to ship our jobs to and our goods from China in order to take advantage of slave labor.

And then there's those nasty labor unions, Yuck! With all that cheap near-slave labor provided by illegal aliens, you can do away with all those expensive and money sucking union contracts! I mean, workers who don't even speak English and are here illegally won't complain, and if they do, no one will understand what they say anyway! And since they probably come from two-bit dictatorship like Mexico, none of these illegal immigrants will even think about complaining about getting a rifle-butt to the back of the head because they come from a country like Mexico where that kind of stuff goes on all the time. Just try bashing in the head of one of those nasty US Citizens and labor union workers who are constantly harping about this right and that right.

And what about all those US citizens who have the utter gall to complain about not being able to compete with all that cheap labor? We just tell them all that if they don't like it, they can all go to Mexico and protest in the streets of their cities, while waving little American flags, and demand that El Presidente Fox grant them welfare benefits and amnesty! When they get gunned down in the street for complaining about the Mexican government's immigration policies, we don't have to listen to their griping any more - and we know how uppity US Citizens can get when it comes to their 'rights'!

Now excuse me while I emmigrate to Mexico, get a Mexican citizenship and then sneak back into the US, illegally, and take advantage of the welfare state!


/maudlin sarcasm

 

[Grenval]

I can understand why you don't appreciate the economic arguments behind this debate, but certainly, given your apparent, liberal disposition, you can appreciate the problems of any other policy.

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

Actually, I was being sarcastic, G.

Frankly, if you can't control your borders, you've lost your nation. That is clearly what is happening in the US. Greedy corporate interests welcome cheap labor bordering on slave labor/indentured servitude. I am a fairly conservative person in my political and economic positions, but I have a major problems with corporate greed and illegal aliens who violated the law by crossing into this country illegally. It especially irritates me and most Americans that 500,000 illegals protest in the streets waving Mexican flags demanding more from a government that they don't even pay taxes to. If the illegal aliens want more from a government, they should go back to Mexico and make demands from their government, but they know they would probably get massacred for doing it.

What our moron politicians, Democrat and Republicans, fail to realize is that they've lost control of this entire country - because if you can't control your borders, you've lost your country. Unfortunately, the US can no longer be a vent for the surplus population of the rest of the world. No country can afford to do that any more - and so-called 'globalism' will be the death of us all if it means diminishing or eliminating national sovereinty everywhere.

But it seems that our politicians have to recognize the fact that illegal aliens are here illegally and the illegal aliens violated the law to get here. Last I heard, illegally crossing the border into the US was already a felony offense. Now, millions of felons are demanding that the US government totally ignore its own laws to accomodate illegal aliens who, by US law, should be deported ASAP for the criminal offense of illegally entering the US. And they have cojones mui grande to wave a foreign flag while demanding something from a government that isn't theirs.

I live in a very rural county in North Carolina. I see literally more illegal aliens from Mexico than US citizens - all of them being exploited by rich morons to cheap to pay some US citizen minimum wage and who treat those illegals as slave labor, literally. But that's entirely beside the point - illegal aliens shouldn't even be here. They should be deported because the cost of letting them stay here and granting them 'amnesty' will cost a whole lot more than the expense of locating them all and deporting them entirely. The US government has the duty to protect and benefit US citizens, not illegal aliens who show no respect for the law by committing the felony of illegally entering the US.

I say hire an engineering firm and build a 20 foot high wall along the US border with Mexico and put an end to the whole problem. That way, we save all those illegals from being exploited by human-traffickers, smugglers and from dieing of exposure crossing the desert.