[Withdrawn] On the Established State Religion

Namwenia

Namwenia

Your Comrade
Pronouns
He/Him
In accordance with Chapter 9, Section 9.4 of the Legal Code of the North Pacific, Flemingovianism has been established as a state religion of The North Pacific. However, I feel this may serve as a deterrent to non-religious member nations considering joining The North Pacific. Further, seeing as the faith has not been active in what appears to be years, I see no reason for TNP to have a State Religion. Therefore, I proposed the removal of the establishment of a state religion in the North Pacific.

Removal of Regional Religion Bill:
Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:
"Section 9.4: Religious Observance":
17. There shall be no state religion or church of The North Pacific.
18. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in any religious organization.
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Marked-up version behind the spoiler
17. Flemingovianism There shall be no state religion or adopted as the religion and church of The North Pacific.
18. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
19. The Flemingovian religion shall receive no financial or tax advantages through being the religion of The North Pacific.
20. Holidays of the Flemingovian religion shall be observed regionally, and all nations shall have the right to take a day off work, unpaid, on those holidays. Government officials are excluded from the effects of this clause.
21. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in the any Flemingovian religionus organization.
22. Flemingovian officials may participate, as invited by the delegate, at all state functions.
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Many of us hope that one day He shall return. On that day, joyous hymns will ring out, and there will be much feasting and celebration.
 
I would ask that the petitioner please provide a non-markup version of the bill. I'll provide a sample of what I think you're intending, but you must still put it in your original post, and you will be responsible for making any edits.

Removal of Regional Religion Bill:
Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:
Section 9.4: Religious Observance:
17. There shall be no state religion or church of The North Pacific.
18. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in any religious organization.
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The BBcode for this bill is...
Code: 
[QUOTE="Removal of Regional Religion Bill"]
Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:
[QUOTE="Section 9.4: Religious Observance"]
17. There shall be no state religion or church of The North Pacific.
18. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in any religious organization.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
 
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Sil Dorsett:
I would ask that the petitioner please provide a non-markup version of the bill. I'll provide a sample of what I think you're intending, but you must still put it in your original post, and you will be responsible for making any edits.

The BBcode for this bill is...
Code: 
[QUOTE="Removal of Regional Religion Bill"]
Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:
[QUOTE="Section 9.4: Religious Observance"]
17. There shall be no state religion or church of The North Pacific.
18. All nations are guaranteed freedom of expression of all, any, or no religious belief, and that freedom shall not be curtailed.
19. No nation shall serve on the cabinet or any other appointed government position by virtue of their status in any religious organization.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
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Thank you. The original post has been updated.
 
Namwenia:
Thank you. The original post has been updated.
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Incorrectly, though. You still don't have an enacting clause. "Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:" is that enacting clause.

And when you say "I move to make the following amendment...", that's not a motion to vote, is it? I don't see it that way. That's also not the bill's enacting clause. I am going to continue to lightly tap you on your shoulder with my gavel until it's done correctly.
 
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Sil Dorsett:
Incorrectly, though. You still don't have an enacting clause. "Section 9.4 of the Legal Code is amended to read as follows:" is that enacting clause.

And when you say "I move to make the following amendment...", that's not a motion to vote, is it? I don't see it that way. That's also not the bill's enacting clause. I am going to continue to lightly tap you on your shoulder with my gavel until it's done correctly.
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I appreciate the light tapping as I know I deserve it.

The original post has been updated again.
 
flem.png
 
First off, congratulations on presenting your first bill to the RA, it is a hard thing to do, and is daunting to many. However, on the substance, I dont think it is something that is going to garner the support it needs to pass. Flemingovianism has been around for so long, I don't think removing it would be possible.
 
Owenstacey:
First off, congratulations on presenting your first bill to the RA, it is a hard thing to do, and is daunting to many. However, on the substance, I dont think it is something that is going to garner the support it needs to pass. Flemingovianism has been around for so long, I don't think removing it would be possible.
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Thank you. And I have noticed the lack of support. But, I stand by my proposal...even if it goes nowhere :hysterical:

Regardless - something being tradition is not a valid reason to keep it especially as it may feel like a deterrent to the participation of others.
 
Personally I have never seen this as a deterrent to non-religious members, or as a deterrent at all. It's simply a way of honouring God Flem. Besides, the Legal Code explicity states that there is no political gain or advantage to "followers", and, if anything, number 18 ensures the protection of the freedom of expression of "all, any, or no religious beliefs".
 
Namwenia:
Regardless - something being tradition is not a valid reason to keep it especially as it may feel like a deterrent to the participation of others.
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I don't see how it could possibly be a deterrent. It's a fake religion and no one takes it seriously - it's just some creative flair.
 
Wow I never thought I would see the day this would come up again. Back in the day this was something like a third rail in TNP politics, and I think it still is. I want to make sure that you’re not proposing this out of genuine concern about people actually being discouraged on religious grounds, because the official state religion is purely an in-character thing. People have gotten extra defensive and aggressive depending on their side on this in years past and I think it’s because they lost sight of the true nature of this particular thing.

However, if you’re fully aware of that and pressing forward, hey why not, there must be other views in a world where this is our state religion. I still don’t think in that sense you’ll have much better luck but this is a game, no harm in playing it.
 
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Pallaith:
Wow I never thought I would see the day this would come up again. Back in the day this was something like a third rail in TNP politics, and I think it still is. I want to make sure that you’re not proposing this out of genuine concern about people actually being discouraged on religious grounds, because the official state religion is purely an in-character thing. People have gotten extra defensive and aggressive depending on their side on this in years past and I think it’s because they lost sight of the true nature of this particular thing.

However, if you’re fully aware of that and pressing forward, hey why not, there must be other views in a world where this is our stage religion. I still don’t think in that sense you’ll have much better luck but this is a game, no harm in playing it.
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No, I am not proposing this about genuine concern that people are going to be truly discouraged about the in-game state religion & know it's for jokes/pretend.

Regardless, I am pressing forward despite the fact that it is fairly clear that my one-man proposal is going nowhere, so let's play the game.

Down with any state religion!
 
I am once again saying no to a state religion for the North Pacific, even knowing full well that I am an army of one in that opinion. :D
 
@Namwenia So are you going to do anything with this bill? A reminder about legislative proposals: The author of the bill (that's you) must motion it to vote.

Standing Procedures:
Legislative Proposal Procedure
  1. Any citizen may introduce a proposal to enact, amend or repeal laws by creating a thread in the Regional Assembly forum or Private Halls subforum.
  2. The associated text of the proposal will be contained in a single quote tag within the opening post of the proposal thread. The citizen who introduced the proposal may alter this text within the opening post at their discretion. This text shall be the official text of the bill.
  3. The citizen who introduced the proposal may call for a vote by posting "motion to vote", or a functional equivalent in the thread.
  4. During the five days after a vote is called for, the citizen who introduced the proposal may continue to amend it. This period, hereafter referred to as Formal Debate, may be shortened at the citizen who introduced the proposal's request. Once Formal Debate has ended, the proposal may no longer be amended, and the Speaker will schedule a vote to begin.
  5. No proposal will be scheduled for a vote that includes changes to more than one document, unless it includes the following clause or a functional equivalent:
No portion of this bill will take effect unless/until all portions take effect.
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Sil Dorsett:
@Namwenia So are you going to do anything with this bill? A reminder about legislative proposals: The author of the bill (that's you) must motion it to vote.
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Thank you for the reminder.

I motion to vote.

I do this fully expecting the motion to fail.
 
Sure. We're now in Formal Debate for the next five days (until (time=1670704756)), after which a vote will be scheduled.
 
Sil Dorsett:
Sure. We're now in Formal Debate for the next five days (until (time=1670704756)), after which a vote will be scheduled.
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Thank you.

I look forward to a series of spirited disagreements from all the Flemingovians here.
 
I object to the scheduling of a vote at this time.
 
Then the GREAT GOD FLEM spoke to Namweniaout of the storm. He said:
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when TNP was founded?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 did you stand against the NPO? Against the NPD? Did you stand with the few who remained when everyone said TNP was lost? Surely you know!
Who mocked the NPO armies with limericks on the RMB?
6 Who risked the wrath of the game mods with constant spamming to keep the invader at bay?
7 Who stood alongside Ananke as the only forum admin in the chaos of 2003?
8 “Who helped us move from Old Blue when the root went batshit,
and helped shape this very forum on which you stand?
9 when we created these very halls
10 when we fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when we set permissions and said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud posts halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the North pacific Resistance,
or shown the Insane Power his place,
13 that we might return the region to the natives
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 I look upon you and I see a mote;
I see dust in my eye to be wiped with the corner of a tissue
15 Where were you when these things happened?
I will tell you where you were.
16 You were not even a zygote In your mother’s womb
Or your babbling had yet to form words.
17 You said to yourself, “I will make a name for myself in TNP.
Flemingovia will not hear; Flemingovia will not see.
18 In your pride you have said “I am more significant than the traditions of TNP.
19 Let me educate you, if you are capable of learning.
20 Pay attention so that you might avoid folly.
Others have trod the path you are seeking to walk
21 they have whined and said “TNP should be like America
Flemingovianism should not be enshrined here.
22 “I say to you: REMEMBER ROMANOFFIA, WHO TROD THE SAME PATH!
And in your ignorance you reply, “who?”
23 And I say “EXACTLY.”
 
Just been pointed out to me that the speaker has not scheduled a vote, so consider my earlier post to be me indicating that I will object to the scheduling of a vote, should one be scheduled.
 
What’s the thinking here, so you can stall it out until the guy pulls the vote? Why don’t you just vote it down as is likely to happen? If you have debate you want to engage in, these posts can be used for that.
 
A reminder of what the RA Rules say:
3. If, before a vote on a proposal begins, at least three citizens object to the decision of the Speaker to schedule it, the Speaker must cancel the scheduled vote.
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I haven't scheduled a vote yet. That doesn't happen until after Formal Debate is over. That is also why I don't like very short gaps between scheduling a vote and when the scheduled vote begins.
 
I stand by my opinion that while it may be fun for some of y'all who have been around for a while, I don't see the overall point in having a state religion and am down to throw it into the ash heap of history like other things we don't need anymore - like Betamax or bronze tools.

Feel free to disagree, but please give the people the opportunity to overwhelm me with no votes.

Your opposition nourishes me.
 
Pallaith:
What’s the thinking here, so you can stall it out until the guy pulls the vote? Why don’t you just vote it down as is likely to happen? If you have debate you want to engage in, these posts can be used for that.
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Because I don't believe the Regional Assembly should dignify the attention seeking that's going on here. Anyone in possession of a modicum of sense would've seen the widespread opposition and dropped it. That the proposer states that it "nourishes" them and seeks to press on regardless is not something worth rewarding. Better to prevent a vote and let it die that way than give them further validation.
 
St George:
Because I don't believe the Regional Assembly should dignify the attention seeking that's going on here. Anyone in possession of a modicum of sense would've seen the widespread opposition and dropped it. That the proposer states that it "nourishes" them and seeks to press on regardless is not something worth rewarding. Better to prevent a vote and let it die that way than give them further validation.
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I don't understand what you think is so wrong with pressing on with an idea, unpopular though it may be.
 
Comfed:
I don't understand what you think is so wrong with pressing on with an idea, unpopular though it may be.
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What I think is wrong is someone wasting the assembly's time with a motion that won't pass, especially one that the author knows won't pass and is pressing on regardless, especially when using language that makes it clear that they're trolling.
 
St George:
What I think is wrong is someone wasting the assembly's time with a motion that won't pass, especially one that the author knows won't pass and is pressing on regardless, especially when using language that makes it clear that they're trolling.
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Everyone has the right to bring proposals before the RA. Maybe I'm just thick but I don't think it's obvious at all that they're trolling.
 
Comfed:
Everyone has the right to bring proposals before the RA. Maybe I'm just thick but I don't think it's obvious at all that they're trolling.
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And everyone has the right to object to the scheduling of a vote on a proposal. It's obvious that they're trolling because they're saying things like "your opposition nourishes me".
 
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Namwenia:
like Betamax or bronze tools
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Betamax is still used in certain segments of the audio-visual recording industry because it's a shockingly versatile format. It still has its uses.

Namwenia:
I stand by my opinion that while it may be fun for some of y'all who have been around for a while, I don't see the overall point in having a state religion
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Regional culture is important. And this is a huge part of our regional culture.

Namwenia:
Your opposition nourishes me.
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That's grossly inappropriate and this attitude makes me think St. George is right about you being a troll.
 
Because the proposal brought about a brilliant reading from the Book of Flemingovia, it makes it totally worth it. I hope Nemwenia reads it and maybe looks further into the events which have shaped our region.
 
Okay, I was trying to be a little silly in my replies to add some levity here as folks seemed so aggressively opposed to the idea of even discussing removal of a state religion. This isn't a troll, I think a state religion is inappropriate and unnecessary in general.

Also, as the state church appears to currently be inactive (with no action in the Temple Courts from my count in about 3 years) except to provide slight chuckles to the folks who have been around longer, I still stand here opposing it.

Even if said opposition is a singular effort.
 
After speaking with GBM, I have changed my mind.

I would like to withdraw this.

Thank you.
 
Since you did ask for this to be withdrawn before the end of formal debate, I'll accept it, mark it as withdrawn, and not schedule a vote.
 
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