North Pacific Union: Idea?

[Johanness]

I know this topic has been thought about before but .. uh it usually dies out in some argument. [This Gov't is dug out from the old Pacific Union Government]

Anyway, the North Pacific Union would act as a European Union and have a Legislative Congress that acts like a World Assembly & appoints Counselors who ratify and amend legislation. Counselors act Executive and have different Offices (e.g the Commission) and appoints Justices who can choose a Chief Justice at their own will.

The Congress, unlike the NPTO Assembly (and more similar to the DU Laws) create RP Legislation (like the WA) that improves standard policy of the North Pacific. Each Nation has one Member of Congress who has one vote in laws and one vote in the Speaker, in the Chamber you RP in the view of your Member of Congress such as what you say in a post is what you say in the Chamber (Unless tagged with OOC)

This is the same for a Counselor, except you are in the Counsel Offices. Each Nation appoints a Delegate who can speak to the Counselor and ask him questions. The Counselor can make decisions in his own office. Counsels include (but can be changed, I guess)

• Counsel of Defense -- Peacekeeping
• Counsel of Economics -- Finance, Trade, Economics, etc.
• Counsel of Internal Affairs -- Responsible for Members of the Union and strengthening relations between them
• Counsel of (I don't know a name for this yet) -- Basic working of the Counsel & Congress

Looks pretty bloated with text - but we can do it! :3

 

[Syrixia]

I tried proposing a UN-like body at the Novrith Conference. It made me the laughing stock of the day.

That said, good luck with this, because I'm pretty sure this is futile.

 

[Johanness]

Well if this is futile, so is the Democratic Union and the NPTO. They don't do anything anymore except "participate" in armed conflicts and make amendments to the charter, try and suspend a member, then elect a new chair.

 

[bootsie]

Yes, that has happened in NPTO's past. However, I will be talking to Kalti or the Assembly about some summits and more peaceful thing than a peacekeeping force. More entente things, more say.

Another organization would probably dilute the activity of all three of the organizations, and cause a spiral of confusion.

~Boots

 

[Johanness]

Yes, that has happened in NPTO's past. However, I will be talking to Kalti or the Assembly about some summits and more peaceful thing than a peacekeeping force. More entente things, more say.

Another organization would probably dilute the activity of all three of the organizations, and cause a spiral of confusion.

~Boots

The NPTO exceeded it's purpose, I believe now. The Democratic Union could step up, but it is inactive and is making a failed attempt to become more active by useless proposals such as 'Recognize - as the King of Mcmasterdonia'. I'm for creating a new Organization. How do you even get a Subforum for things such as that?

 

[Syrixia]

Yes, that has happened in NPTO's past. However, I will be talking to Kalti or the Assembly about some summits and more peaceful thing than a peacekeeping force. More entente things, more say.

Another organization would probably dilute the activity of all three of the organizations, and cause a spiral of confusion.

~Boots

The NPTO exceeded it's purpose, I believe now. The Democratic Union could step up, but it is inactive and is making a failed attempt to become more active by useless proposals such as 'Recognize - as the King of Mcmasterdonia'. I'm for creating a new Organization. How do you even get a Subforum for things such as that?

I would respond to this post but I don't want to start a flamewar, because at this point my opinions on this subject would.

[me] exits the thread

 

[Pauline Bonaparte]

I think OOC that it would be a unique idea that would definitely liven things up (not that I think RP is particularly unlively). IC, though, I think it would probably face some pretty severe criticism from the Novrith Pact about interfering in the internal sovereignty of nations. I think that if instituted it could be fun to RP the NPU trying to do what it set out to do among its own members while coming into diplomatic and political conflict with nations that might be opposed to its methods.

 

[Johanness]

It's not mean to be interfering in the Nations Internal Affairs - and even if it did it was their fault for signing up to join anyway.

 

[Syrixia]

It's not mean to be interfering in the Nations Internal Affairs - and even if it did it was their fault for signing up to join anyway.

Think about what you just said.

"Sorry, new member! We get to meddle with your nation now that you joined us! Yay!"

 

[Johanness]

I said it's not and even if it did. A Nation can reject a law onto themselves from Congress (unless it's something like Human Rights)

 

[Syrixia]

I said it's not and even if it did. A Nation can reject a law onto themselves from Congress (unless it's something like Human Rights)

There should be no unlesses. A sovereign nation is SOVEREIGN.

Also, if a nations reject a new international law and do not abide by it, what is the point of the law?!

 

[plembobria]

I said it's not and even if it did. A Nation can reject a law onto themselves from Congress (unless it's something like Human Rights)

There should be no unlesses. A sovereign nation is SOVEREIGN.

Also, if a nations reject a new international law and do not abide by it, what is the point of the law?!

This quite a conundrum, one that presents itself IRL. The answer to the question is: Because.

That said, I don't see the point of this organization. Most nations here would not be interested (ICly) in joining an EU-style supranational organization with legislative, executive, and judicial power, unless there was a compelling reason for it.

Plembobria would only accede to such an organization if it were centered entirely on its continent, and then would have all kinds of UK-style opt-outs.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

 

[Syrixia]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

I like this idea. But it shouldn't be the Democratic Union. The DU is an organization dedicated to a specific topic: democracy. A UN-like unit should branch out and be more broad and generalized.

We should create a new body that all nations are automatically a part of, call it the Global Assembly, and introduce a clause to its Charter that would allow UK-style opt-outs providing the opter-out had a good reason.

 

[Johanness]

I said it's not and even if it did. A Nation can reject a law onto themselves from Congress (unless it's something like Human Rights)

There should be no unlesses. A sovereign nation is SOVEREIGN.

Also, if a nations reject a new international law and do not abide by it, what is the point of the law?!

Well It's hard to explain, I'm trying to think of a solution to that. If the Nation keeps denying laws and being disobedient to the Union they could be suspended (It's an idea)

 

[Piscivore]

We should create a new body that all nations are automatically a part of, call it the Global Assembly, and introduce a clause to its Charter that would allow UK-style opt-outs providing the opter-out had a good reason.

Can the reason be "I'm Sadakoyama, dammit"?

 

[Johanness]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

It could work. But not the Democratic Union, what if all nations here aren't Democratic? I suggest we go with the North Pacific Union. But the Organization isn't even created yet and we can't create subforums for it being so new (unless this idea actually works)

 

[Piscivore]

Well It's hard to explain, I'm trying to think of a solution to that. If the Nation keeps denying laws and being disobedient to the Union they could be suspended (It's an idea)

This is starting to sound like just another idea for something you created to be the boss of everyone else.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

It could work. But not the Democratic Union, what if all nations here aren't Democratic? I suggest we go with the North Pacific Union. But the Organization isn't even created yet and we can't create subforums for it being so new (unless this idea actually works)

I think the democratic aspect isn't as important now as it once was.

We could just rename the Democratic Union to something else. And then the laws would only need simple changes.

Some mechanism would need to be in place to inform nations that are RPing that they are /automatically/ members and cannot leave the union. They can ignore what the union says, and many would, but they can't resign from it.

 

[Syrixia]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

It could work. But not the Democratic Union, what if all nations here aren't Democratic? I suggest we go with the North Pacific Union. But the Organization isn't even created yet and we can't create subforums for it being so new (unless this idea actually works)

I think the democratic aspect isn't as important now as it once was.

We could just rename the Democratic Union to something else. And then the laws would only need simple changes.

Some mechanism would need to be in place to inform nations that are RPing that they are /automatically/ members and cannot leave the union. They can ignore what the union says, and many would, but they can't resign from it.

By that logic, we could also rename the NPTO too now that the Peacekeeping Forces have been abolished.

We must make a new organization!

 

[Johanness]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

It could work. But not the Democratic Union, what if all nations here aren't Democratic? I suggest we go with the North Pacific Union. But the Organization isn't even created yet and we can't create subforums for it being so new (unless this idea actually works)

I think the democratic aspect isn't as important now as it once was.

We could just rename the Democratic Union to something else. And then the laws would only need simple changes.

Some mechanism would need to be in place to inform nations that are RPing that they are /automatically/ members and cannot leave the union. They can ignore what the union says, and many would, but they can't resign from it.

Then we should change the Democratic Union Government. It doesn't make sense for it to be just the Assembly.

 

[Piscivore]

Some mechanism would need to be in place to inform nations that are RPing that they are /automatically/ members and cannot leave the union. They can ignore what the union says, and many would, but they can't resign from it.

I'm not sure I like that. If some nation never goes to the meetings, ignores what the union says, and does what it wants regardless, is their membership even meaningful?

 

[mcmasterdonia]

My proposed solution to this would be to have /all/ nations automatically become members of the democratic union. Like the UN then, it's resolutions and things would become effectively non-binding unless a nation actually ratifies them. Signing them and ratification into domestic laws are not one and the same thing.

Indeed there could well be a bloc of sovereigntist nations that refuse to sign anything, and refuse to participate in peacekeeping operations. Likewise, national leaders could address the body on various topics, and again, those same nations could completely ignore the unions recommendations on their internal matters. Might make the DU more active and relevant again, but it would also mean that some people I am sure, would find it annoying that not all nations ratified the proposals passed, and that not all nations participated in the debate.

A security council is not something we should have.

It could work. But not the Democratic Union, what if all nations here aren't Democratic? I suggest we go with the North Pacific Union. But the Organization isn't even created yet and we can't create subforums for it being so new (unless this idea actually works)

I think the democratic aspect isn't as important now as it once was.

We could just rename the Democratic Union to something else. And then the laws would only need simple changes.

Some mechanism would need to be in place to inform nations that are RPing that they are /automatically/ members and cannot leave the union. They can ignore what the union says, and many would, but they can't resign from it.

By that logic, we could also rename the NPTO too now that the Peacekeeping Forces have been abolished.

We must make a new organization!

There is no reason to create a new organisation. The Democratic Union was intended to be an encompassing union of nations, right now it isn't that. It was also one created by the regional government to help facilitate role play, it would make sense that the DU be converted into the new body that was suggested. I would think that the DU would be no longer required with a new organisation, with the current position of the DU and the way it is already promoted in game and through various dispatches it would be the easiest one to change over.

@Piscivore; no, their membership is not meaningful. But that would be the point I guess... It would be just like the real United Nations

 

[Syrixia]

The NPTO was also created to be an encompassing union of nations, at least under my vision for it. If the original founder Bootsie had gotten his way during that fateful PM with me the NPTO wouldn't exist.

Point being, doing all this work on morphing the DU is useless. We ought to either make a new organization or merge the two existing ones.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I don't see how you have reached that at all. The NPTO exists for a different purpose, and from what I understand from recent conversations with Bootsie, it wasn't how he intended the organisation to me. In any case this is largely irrelevant.

My core point here is that the DU was intended to do those things, and that it was created at the instigation of the government to facilitate RP in the region, which it has done so. It is also widely featured in government literature in the game, and promoted by the home affairs Ministry. It would make sense that this organisation be what is suggested here. I believe the NPTO is far more likely to be able to exist in it's own right, think like NATO, than the DU would should this proposal go ahead.

 

[Syrixia]

I don't see how you have reached that at all. The NPTO exists for a different purpose, and from what I understand from recent conversations with Bootsie, it wasn't how he intended the organisation to me. In any case this is largely irrelevant.

My core point here is that the DU was intended to do those things, and that it was created at the instigation of the government to facilitate RP in the region, which it has done so. It is also widely featured in government literature in the game, and promoted by the home affairs Ministry. It would make sense that this organisation be what is suggested here. I believe the NPTO is far more likely to be able to exist in it's own right, think like NATO, than the DU would should this proposal go ahead.

Then there should be no traces of the old DU left, in terms of aestheticity. The name should change, and so should the seal. Also, the Charter must be heavily updated.

 

[Johanness]

Guys, the DU is dead. We need to create something new.

 

[Piscivore]

Then there should be no traces of the old DU left, in terms of aestheticity. The name should change...

Awesome Radical Union Xtreme!

That will keep him happy, and It was way to much work coming up with something that acronymed out to "Sadakoyama"

 

[Vazos]

[me]would reject membership in any all-encompassing organization IC. I concur with McM OOC that a security council would cause more problems than it would solve (much like the UN).

 

[Kannex]

I agree with McM; automatic membership would facilitate diplomatic RP. If Nebula and Syrixia had both been active members of the DU while the Cold War occurred, we would've had some interesting Cuban Missile Crisis-style exchanges between the two parties in the DU Assembly. It would also be a general place for leaders/nations to announce new policies and receive immediate responses, instead of posting announcements on disparate threads like Fluttr or whatnot.

We can retro it and say that after some sort of WWII-like event, or perhaps with the development of the modern world order, nations all decided to join an intergovernmental organization to facilitate diplomacy and peace-making. As an incentive we could add a parallel World Bank and several humanitarian organizations attached to the DU.

And of course the DU would have to be renamed to accept those countries that explicitly reject democracy.

 

[plembobria]

Let me say this: the NPTO is a preferred organization for this purpose, since it was recently, de-alliance-ified, it has no actual purpose or "alignment," it is much more suited to the role of a catch-all supranational body.

 

[Syrixia]

Let me say this: the NPTO is a preferred organization for this purpose, since it was recently, de-alliance-ified, it has no actual purpose or "alignment," it is much more suited to the role of a catch-all supranational body.

On top of this, the NPTO would require less editing as it is already open to all forms of government. It's even in the oath. The NPTO is more suited to reform into the suggested organization; the DU should remain what it is; a committee of democratic nations dedicated to preserving democracy and civil rights.

 

[Johanness]

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

 

[plembobria]

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

All things which have had heavy political ramifications. You'd know that if you were paying attention to RP instead of trying to change our community.

 

[Syrixia]

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

All things which have had heavy political ramifications. You'd know that if you were paying attention to RP instead of trying to change our community.

OH SNAP!

 

[Nightsong]

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

As the current Chair of the NPTO, I am entirely against your idea of abolishing the NPTO. Sure, from an outside perspective it might seem like the organization does little but if you were involved in RP, which I have not seen you active in, then you would understand what role the organization plays. As for the DU, I will not comment on them as I have not been heavily active there and cannot say one way or another how that organization is holding up. So please, before asking the community to make drastic changes to these organizations which are utilized in role play (to varying extents), I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

 

[Piscivore]

I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

His history suggests that unless he gets to unquestionably dictate the terms of how the RP proceeds for every nation, he doesn't want to participate.

He's proposed a number of ideas, some of them interesting and some less so; but they always fall apart when people stubbornly insist on deciding what happens to or in their own nations.

That's what this is about; he wants a clean slate with this organization so everything is his idea and runs the way he alone says it should.

 

[Wolfsea]

Yeah, I think Piscivore nailed it. I mean I've been planning something for months organization-wise but I want to get all the kinks ironed out of the system before presenting it for the exact reason of not looking like its a power grab on my part.

 

[Johanness]

Just kill the NPTO and DU. They haven't done anything but amend, suspend, and elect.

As the current Chair of the NPTO, I am entirely against your idea of abolishing the NPTO. Sure, from an outside perspective it might seem like the organization does little but if you were involved in RP, which I have not seen you active in, then you would understand what role the organization plays. As for the DU, I will not comment on them as I have not been heavily active there and cannot say one way or another how that organization is holding up. So please, before asking the community to make drastic changes to these organizations which are utilized in role play (to varying extents), I invite you to actually role play and see how they run before passing judgement and saying we should do away with them.

I mean in influence. You're supposed to be a military organization.

 

[Syrixia]

That's what this is about; he wants a clean slate with this organization so everything is his idea and runs the way he alone says it should.

However, that does not mean the discussion should end here. What should end is his hope that he will have any control over such an organization created by this discussion. Selfish is what he is.