TNP and NPO End Relations

[King Durk the Awesome]

After many months of normalized relations between the North Pacific and the New Pacific Order (and its various incarnations), things have taken an unfortunate turn due to demands made by the NPO regarding TNP's consolate policy. Recently, the Pacific Army requested and was granted a consolate in TNP. According to the pledge taken by the Pacific Army prior to recieving the consolate, it "in no way forces The North Pacific into any Military or Political Alliance or relationship." Rather, it is Northern policy that consolates are treated merely as a means of communication. However, it was still insisted by the NPO officials that all relations be terminated with the PA or risk the end of TNP-NPO relations.

The reason for all this controversy? It remains unclear to many. Pierconium and NPO Senator of Intercontinental Enticement and Provocation Moo Cows With Guns maintain that the PA exists solely to bring democracy to the Pacific, implying an overthrow of the NPO regime. Others insist the NPO was simply testing the North, to see how much it would bend. A point of contention was the PA's ability to damage the NPO; with a population of only 39 mostly inactive nations, did it really deserve all the attention it was recieving?

After much deliberation, North Pacific External Affairs Minister Dalimbar informed the NPO of his decision to keep the PA consolate. After calling the government of the North "inconsistent and hypocritical", Pierconium maintained and recieved his wish for the NPO consolate's closure.

It is important to note the NPO's trend towards isolationism and and what some describe as "gameplay antagonism" practiced by the original NPO under Francos Spain. Relations between the NPO and the West Pacific, ACCEL, and the Meritocracy are all being closed or have closed already. According to Pierconium himself, "those that are not long established friends will be much cooler than in past months and in past incarnations. The Pacific is an island unto itself... And for the first time in a great while, we are going to stop suppressing that inherent superiority in the name of 'good relations' and let the pieces fall where they may."

Long-time friend and ally of the North, TWP, has faced a similar situation as the North and has delt with it in a similar fashion. In what TWP delegate Eli described as a "misguided attempt to subvert West Pacific sovereignty", Pierconium and Moo Cows placed demands upon Eli to close the West's embassy with the Pacific Army or face the termination of relations with the NPO. After it was made clear that even just an interest section with the PA would not be acceptable, Eli elected to keep the full PA embassy. Pierconium warned against compromising with pro-democracy underground forces as Eli did to re-unite the waring factions in TWP. He then went on the record as saying that the West Pacific's decision keep the PA embassy "worked out as I (Pierconium) wanted", leaving TWP native Berhampore and others wondering about Pierconium's sincerity concerning his fear of the Pacific Army. Only time will tell.

Signing out,
JAL

 

[King Durk the Awesome]

It has come to this reporter's attention that the New Pacific Order has threatened to close relations with the Global Right Alliance due to its consolate with the anti-Gatesville region Concosia. The GRA has taken the other route however and has closed the Concosia consolate. Further details are unknown to this reporter at this time.

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

What a stupid situtation resulting from the NPO deliberately attempting to initiate hostilities by institutional obstuse-ness.



R

 

[Fulhead Land]

This feels just like the old Twoslit led the NPO are evil witchhunts from back in the day! Who says lightening doesnt strick twice!

 

[Poltsamaa]

What a stupid situtation resulting from the NPO deliberately attempting to initiate hostilities by institutional obstuse-ness.



R

Actually, the NPO just sought to clarify TNP's stance with regards to the Pacific Army and the Embassy here!! TNP made their decision and so did the NPO!! I don't see anything obtuse about it!!

Pacific Army exists to depose the government of The Pacific!! The Pacific are therefore within their rights to sever ties with regions that recognise Pacific Army!!

It is no secret that a proportion of our more influential members share the goal of Pacific Army with respects to government in The Pacific and therefore it is not unexpected that The Pacific would sever ties as they have done due to recognition of Pacific Army!!

Live and let live!!

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

Frankly, I don't really care what the NPO does, and I don't even think about Pacific Army if I can avoid it.

What I do personally care about is having stable feeder regions. I'm fairly sure the NPO really wants the same thing, or should want the same thing.

R

 

[Former English Colony]

Actually, the NPO just sought to clarify TNP's stance with regards to the Pacific Army and the Embassy here!! TNP made their decision and so did the NPO!! I don't see anything obtuse about it!!

We don't *have* an embassy with the Pacific Army. We have a consulate. Which, from my understanding, we'll give to any region that exists in NS. I find the NPO's actions rather silly in regards to this, as they obviously recognize the PA exists, we were just doing the same.

 

[Pierconium (Guest)]

I believe the granting of a consulate constitutes recognition that an entity exists and a desire for communication.

We can not understand the desire to communicate with a region designed specifically to unseat the government of a fellow feeder that one has good relations with.

I do notice in the article that it is stated that the NPO believes the Pacific Army to be designed to oppose our government structure and that position is not refuted by the author.

 

[Great Bights Mum]

It has come to this reporter's attention that the New Pacific Order has threatened to close relations with the Global Right Alliance due to its consolate with the anti-Gatesville region Concosia. The GRA has taken the other route however and has closed the Concosia consolate. Further details are unknown to this reporter at this time.

Now THAT'S interesting. What's next? Asking regions to ban individual nations who are sympathetic to regions that don't find favor with the NPO?

@Pierconuim: We don't mind hearing alternative points of view. Its something we have here called free speech. If y'uns don't want to talk to us, that's YOUR choice.

 

[Fulhead Land]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

 

[Pierconium (Guest)]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

I have come to know this as TNP's version of selective free speech.

 

[Former English Colony]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

Yes, but we wouldn't have demanded the other region close their embassy. We wouldn't believe we had that right. The NPO *does* believe they have the right to tell others what to do and how to act.

 

[Pierconium (Guest)]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

Yes, but we wouldn't have demanded the other region close their embassy. We wouldn't believe we had that right. The NPO *does* believe they have the right to tell others what to do and how to act.

I will view that as an error in interpretation.

The Pacific made no demands, we requested you close the consulate and stated that our choice would be to close ours if that request was not met. It was still your choice.

 

[Former English Colony]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

Yes, but we wouldn't have demanded the other region close their embassy. We wouldn't believe we had that right. The NPO *does* believe they have the right to tell others what to do and how to act.

I will view that as an error in interpretation.

The Pacific made no demands, we requested you close the consulate and stated that our choice would be to close ours if that request was not met. It was still your choice.

Ivan. You're always capable of making me giggle.

 

[Hersfold]

If I recall correctly, the so-called request was something along the lines of "Close the PA's consulate or we will cut relations." Requests don't generally deal in absolutes.

 

[Pierconium (Guest)]

If I recall correctly, the so-called request was something along the lines of "Close the PA's consulate or we will cut relations." Requests don't generally deal in absolutes.

I only deal in absolutes.

 

[Fulhead Land]

I have come to know this as TNP's version of selective free speech.

Oh how i love it.

Yes, but we wouldn't have demanded the other region close their embassy. We wouldn't believe we had that right. The NPO *does* believe they have the right to tell others what to do and how to act.

really? I would disagree with that highly! In fact people threw themselves into the TNPG embassy debate with great gusto! But of course no-one remembers that!

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

consolate consolate consolate consolates consolate consolate's

Consulate.

with a population of only 39 mostly inactive nations, did it really deserve all the attention it was recieving?

Could you not answer your own rhetorical question? I thought you were a member of the PA?

(This is not a show of support for the NPO, i'm merely curious)

 

[King Durk the Awesome]

consolate consolate consolate consolates consolate consolate's

Consulate.

with a population of only 39 mostly inactive nations, did it really deserve all the attention it was recieving?

Could you not answer your own rhetorical question? I thought you were a member of the PA?

(This is not a show of support for the NPO, i'm merely curious)

consolate consolate consolate consolates consolate consolate's

Consulate.

So THAT's what Eras was talking about

with a population of only 39 mostly inactive nations, did it really deserve all the attention it was recieving?

Could you not answer your own rhetorical question? I thought you were a member of the PA?

(This is not a show of support for the NPO, i'm merely curious)

I would answer my own question with a No, they are not a threat. However Pierconium and others do not believe this so I believe it was prudent to leave the question in the article and not include only the PA's point of view.

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

Thanks for your clarification and also thank you for revitalizing the wire. I enjoy what you've put out so far.

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

Lets think back a few months to the days when TNPG existed. You all loved calling us a rebellion group, and if anyone had opened an embassy with su you would have fumed, swore and god knows what else. The Pacific are doing the same, at least with them they are a real rebellion anyway!

Yes, but we wouldn't have demanded the other region close their embassy. We wouldn't believe we had that right. The NPO *does* believe they have the right to tell others what to do and how to act.

I will view that as an error in interpretation.

The Pacific made no demands, we requested you close the consulate and stated that our choice would be to close ours if that request was not met. It was still your choice.

That was an ultimatum, and not a choice.

Any statement to the effect "do this or we will do that" smacks of coersion and borders on black mail. The object of such coercion eludes me.

Anyone who deals in absolutes has no business in diplomacy because when one's position is absolute, one cannot engage in diplomacy. That's fairly self evident.

A more appropriate response (not that you would even consider it) would have been to:


1. Brief the Government of TNP about your concerns about the Pacific Army region -

2. Explain how the PA is involved in an attempt to destabilize your region -

3. Promote the common interests of feeder regions by explaining why the region in question is not a nice region to recognize and that what destabilizes one feeder region tends to destabilize other feeder regions.

4. Be prepared to negotiate a peaceful and civil conclusion that benefits your region and our region to the happiness and satisfaction of all parties.


Given that Pacific Army is a region bordering on nil as far as it's power and numbers are concerned, I fail to see why you would even be upset at a chattering gnat that someone created simply to annoy you.

Attempting to invlove another feeder region in an utterly meaningless and possibly non-existant conflict as a means of promoting a goal is not a very diplomatically astute program. IOW, you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Making demands and delivering ultimatae (pardon my Latin) is no way to promote your interests. It makes others think ill of you, not that I believe you care one iota what anyone thinks, which is, incidentally, why people tend to think ill of those who make demands and deliver ultimatae.

You would have done better to ask for help outright instead of deliving an ultimatum.

And really, I don't think you have anything to worry about from the Pacific Army. I wouldn't worry were I you.

R

 

[Poltsamaa]

An ultimatum still contains choice!! TNP made their choice, NPO made theirs!!

It really is as simple as that!!

Fulhead raises a good point about TNPG, but we all know that people react differently when the shoe is on the other foot!!

Consulate/Embassy, no real difference other than semantics as far as I'm concerned!!

 

[Cthul Murgos]

boo hoo. Someone decides not to cave to the NPO and it's news a million apparently. The NPO and supporters tend to cause quite a bit of strife wherever they go. Just because people don't seem to hold them in arse-kissing regard, they're considered a threat. Yet when I consider them as such, I'm crucified many times over.

Now with it being found the coup within my motherland being due to NPO supporters and infiltrators, I am more deeply caudified agains them, even if I shall soon be a full king of my own land with no assistance. A dream is a dream that can become horrifying reality at a moment's notice.

It is little our fault that our 'grumpy onii-chan' has issue with who we choose to do business with. Their problem with our policy is neither our concern, nor within their scope of authority to correct. And should they wish to try? They may bring it, and most likely face a war they cannot and will not ever win. Therefore, their option is to get ticked off, whine like children, and not be our friend anymore, or shut up and suck it up, which is beyond their limited ability to do.

Good riddance. They and their ilk sicken me with their extreme paranoia. A little paranoia is a good thing, but when you have multiple dual citizens that live here and you dishonor by ignoring, it speaks very little of what your word is worth, except to conquor. I am surprised any region of sound mind, not under direct subversion, can believe anything said by them that isn't threatening or childish in the first place.

It is a good thing that TNP wash our hands of dealings with them, and await for them to grow up into more mature people, instead of the blithering infants they seem to have degenerated to since the fall of the Republic. The Republic was an irritant, but trustworthy. The Order is a dangerous, infantile entity that needs to be disciplined by something older and far wiser.

 

[Great Bights Mum]

The analogous usage of the TNPG does not seem to have the ring of truth about it. I did recall there was a stir about the role of an opposition party, but I could not recollect any request for a consulate or an embassy. To my way of thinking all three of these types of entities are entirely different.

An opposition party is at present undefined in terms of formal status within TNP. A consulate is an office given on the forum to regions or or affiliations of regions who request it. We have an open door policy about it. Often regions who have consulates find the relationship between us grows to the point where an embassy is created, but it is not a given. An embassy requires a formal agreement be entered into between both parties. It really is a higher level of affiliation.

As for an ultimatum still being a choice, I think Roman made the point clearly when he outlined what a diplomatic solution could look like. We could go around the world and make truly inane demands on sovereign regions. When we are rebuffed we can spin it the same way. "It was their choice."

The truth is this: If The Pacific wants a consulate here they can have it. If they choose not to, it's their loss.

 

[Poltsamaa]

boo hoo. Someone decides not to cave to the NPO and it's news a million apparently. The NPO and supporters tend to cause quite a bit of strife wherever they go. Just because people don't seem to hold them in arse-kissing regard, they're considered a threat. Yet when I consider them as such, I'm crucified many times over.

Now with it being found the coup within my motherland being due to NPO supporters and infiltrators, I am more deeply caudified agains them, even if I shall soon be a full king of my own land with no assistance. A dream is a dream that can become horrifying reality at a moment's notice.

It is little our fault that our 'grumpy onii-chan' has issue with who we choose to do business with. Their problem with our policy is neither our concern, nor within their scope of authority to correct. And should they wish to try? They may bring it, and most likely face a war they cannot and will not ever win. Therefore, their option is to get ticked off, whine like children, and not be our friend anymore, or shut up and suck it up, which is beyond their limited ability to do.

Good riddance. They and their ilk sicken me with their extreme paranoia. A little paranoia is a good thing, but when you have multiple dual citizens that live here and you dishonor by ignoring, it speaks very little of what your word is worth, except to conquor. I am surprised any region of sound mind, not under direct subversion, can believe anything said by them that isn't threatening or childish in the first place.

It is a good thing that TNP wash our hands of dealings with them, and await for them to grow up into more mature people, instead of the blithering infants they seem to have degenerated to since the fall of the Republic. The Republic was an irritant, but trustworthy. The Order is a dangerous, infantile entity that needs to be disciplined by something older and far wiser.

*yawns*

Thanks for that Deikura!!

 

[Cthul Murgos]

Thanks for that Deikura!!

You sir, have quite a bit of gall, calling me a traitor to my face.

Mods/Admins. I protest. I am insulted directly in public. I demand something be done, immediately, to censure this person from further insults against me, obviously intended to inflame.

 

[Poltsamaa]

I called you a traitor?!

I just commented on the striking similarity between your rants and your "sister's" rants!!

 

[Great Bights Mum]

Cthul Murgos, your request is noted. Please check your PMs.

 

[Cthul Murgos]

Your insensitivity to the Praetorate's internal strife is touching. Lay your mind at ease, young irritant.

Deikura has defected from the Praetorate to the NPO. Now. Why don't you think about what you're saying before you shoot your mouth off?

<ooc>And you'd do well to stay in character too. My similarities to my cousin who I consider close to me as a sister have absolutely no bearing on my in-game activities whatsoever. I still consider your words an attack on me for incitement to an arguement, and I thus bring my protest out of character.</ooc>

 

[Poltsamaa]

I couldn't give a stuff about the Praetorate!!

And why did you edit out the forum troll part?!

 

[Fedele]

Poltsamaa, you are a forum troll, and an ugly, hairy one at that.

 

[Great Bights Mum]

Shush, Fedele. That was supposed to be our secret.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Well I guess I won't bother waxing from now on then if you are going to be like that!!

 

[moo-cows with guns]

It has come to this reporter's attention that the New Pacific Order has threatened to close relations with the Global Right Alliance due to its consolate with the anti-Gatesville region Concosia. The GRA has taken the other route however and has closed the Concosia consolate. Further details are unknown to this reporter at this time.

Getting the full facts would be a good thing before reporting news. Gatesville requested in the GRA embassy on our forum that we close our embassy should GRA continue to recognize Concosia. We supported our ally without question and presented GRA with the choice to continue relations with us and close the offending embassy or not. They chose to continue.

 

[moo-cows with guns]

A point of contention was the PA's ability to damage the NPO; with a population of only 39 mostly inactive nations, did it really deserve all the attention it was recieving? 

It hardly matters the size of the region. We all know that one nation can completely change the landscape of the game given the right circumstances and mindset. Game glitches such as the ones that removed Goddessnesss and Berphamore (sp?) from their delegacies are one way; situations such as the one that gave rise to Pixiedance and the TND are another.

When the PA was revived by Talkos many months ago (and I do like Kos, btw), it was with the original PA intent of destroying the government of The Pacific, at that time the PRP, and bringing democracy to the region. As one member said in irc last fall or winter, ""If we had the numbers, we would go in and take the PRP down now." The original intent of the PA is still very much alive in their organization, despite its removal from the WFE and their forum.

Like I stated on TWP's forum, it has always seemed inconsistent to recognize both The Pacific and the Pacific Army in my eyes, long before I moved to The Pacific. When the situation was brought up in Equilism many months back, it was decided that since the PRP had been recognized as the legitimate government of The Pacific, then granting an embassy or a consulate to the Pacific Army would be insulting and not consistent with that point of view.

NOTE: To JAL and everyone else, my name has a hyphen—it is Moo-cows with guns.

 

[Fulhead Land]

The analogous usage of the TNPG does not seem to have the ring of truth about it. I did recall there was a stir about the role of an opposition party, but I could not recollect any request for a consulate or an embassy. To my way of thinking all three of these types of entities are entirely different.

*casts mind back to a time in Lemuria*

I tried to not mention it by name (and sorry for doing so eras) but my analogy needed proving.

You sir, have quite a bit of gall, calling me a traitor to my face.

You think thats insulting?!

And isnt it flaimebait when you publically make your greviencas..pubic in the attempt to sling mud on poltsys reputation and cause him trouble with the moderators?

 

[Flemingovia]

I do wonder why we are still raking over the dead embers of this. It seems to me there are two possible interpretations of the events:

1. The West and North Pacifics, either deliberately or innocently, provoked the NPO by granting recognition to an organisation with the aim of overthrowing the Paicfic. The NPO made the reasonable request that the recognition be withdrawn. This was refused by the governments of the West and the North, and the NPO reasonably concluded that recognition of the Pacific Army was incompatable with relations with the NPO. Diplomatic relations between the feeders have therefore been suspended.

2. This actually has little to do with the Pacific Army Embassy - which is why in the North Pacific there was no complaint about the Pacific Army embassy for over a month. Whatever the origins of the PA, it is now a region in its own right, with no real stance about the NPO, and besides which, it the West and North, granting low-level diplomatic relations does not indicate approval of the region's policies. No. This is rather the Pacific using an opportunity to bitchslap two of its fellow feeders, to see if they could be intimidated. The foreign policy of the North and West Pacifics is no business of the Pacific, and they should keep their noses out of matters and stick to running their own region.

I think 1 and 2 just about covers it, and I suspect the two viewpoints are irreconcilable. Pick one, and move on.

 

[Darkesia]

I just want to say that I really like Flem's ability to distill all the crap into it's essential elixir. I choose 1, not that it matters.

And Fulhead, I remember Lem's ordeals with our attempt at neutrality quite well. I was MoFA. To be honest, I believe it was The Pacific's hardline policies that made our own policy of neutrality impossible. Because we (in Lem) are friends before NS players, we agreed (unspoken as it was) to simply let the government structure atrophy rather than fight over it. I don't think that's an option here.

The choices are made. There's no sense getting all upset and wasting good rhetoric over it. It's not going to change anything except our blood pressure.

Sato, my friend. I really like you. But you have to take a step back. To harbor so much hatred for characters in a game is unhealthy.

Also, just because there are no official relations with a region does not mean there are no unofficial relations. There are too many of us dual citizens out there to have complete isolation.

 

[Fulhead Land]

Sato, my friend. I really like you. But you have to take a step back. To harbor so much hatred for characters in a game is unhealthy

No its not. I hate everyone and I am no worse for it. Ah look the turtles on the roof again! *falls over*

 

[moo-cows with guns]

For me, it's always been Choice No. 1. I have argued that consistently when I was in Equilism, and I still do now. I've never played the game like Choice No. 2 describes, and I won't start. If it is more convenient for people to believe Choice No. 2 because it fits in-game grudges and dislikes, then so be it. Nothing said by anyone will change those beliefs.

As for what Dark said about unofficial relations, time will tell whether that is wanted or occurs.