Fantasy-Realism Disconnect

TNP's RP standards of realism and fantasy have changed a lot over the years. When I first joined TNP RP, it was almost entirely a purely realistic setting first. That didn't alway occur but was the goal. Since that time, we've seen the development of several fantasy elements in TNP-RP, most notably the dragons of Darcania and the implementation of werewolves from Esplandia and Sodium's wendingo.

I want to have a discussion on where we think the line is, what is the limit of fantasy elements that we can implement in our setting?

Generally when I'm using my werewolves and vampires in Arrandal, I only use them within my own borders and in my own RP. If I RP with that nation in someone else's role play, (for example Kanada's civil war in the 1800s) then I just ignore the fantasy elements and treat any fantasy creatures as purely human. If however anyone is okay with me having fantasy creatures in their RP then I'll gladly work them in.

I think as long as we're willing to work with other role players and don't push the fantastic into everything we do, and as long as their is cooperation, then fantasy can be added in. At least in small doses.

I believe that fantasy should be applied in a realistic manner. For example, only two Darcanian dragon clans breathe fire- one only does so for religious ceremonies and the other used to use it casually but pledged never to do so again. (So this way we don't have actively firebreathing dragons lurking around.)

Fantasy in our world can mesh with realism to create a world in which the fantastical elements become part OF the realism/become realistic in themselves. If that makes any sense.

It probably doesn't lol, I wasn't entirely sure how to express my opinion on this in text.

As this thread exists, I feel it’s important to note the Aed Kaenë magic. It’s a magic system based around light (specifically that of the sun) and was used historically by the Aed Kaenë in prehistory/antiquity but was largely eradicated during the fall of their civilization. In modern RP only two people use it, a character Faekhal, who will only be involved in my solo RP called The New Heir, and Arthur Tatarov, who learns it in The New Heir and in OOC terms I have no plans to use it outside of that RP.

I believe I should also mention the Dubal'Ne. They are a long-extinct non-human race that lived on one of the Syrixian Home Islands. They lived in subterranean cities, the ruins of which still exist. I used to base them on the Dwemer from The Elder Scrolls back when I was...quite fascinated with the series, but since then they've become their own thing, now possessing turquoise skin, white hair, and a more slender build. I've also been using more LOTR-inspired names for their things and concepts rather than TES-inspired names, and I've been altering the LOTR-inspired names to make them more original.

The Dubal'Ne were very technologically advanced, and made wondrous strides in science and technology, but their race and all that they had learned was destroyed in its entirety by the ancient Syrixians, who, five thousand years from today, committed mass genocide of the Dubal'Ne race in the name of Prajapati and His holy glory. It is a stain on Syrixian history that Imperial historians can never forget.

EDIT: There IS something regarding the long-dead race of Dubal'Ne that I want to hide from the general public, for now. I welcome the Mods to contact me via Discord so I can tell them what it is. I hope you guys can keep it secret- it's a major spoiler.

Syrixia:

I believe that fantasy should be applied in a realistic manner. For example, only two Darcanian dragon clans breathe fire- one only does so for religious ceremonies and the other used to use it casually but pledged never to do so again. (So this way we don't have actively firebreathing dragons lurking around.)

Fantasy in our world can mesh with realism to create a world in which the fantastical elements become part OF the realism/become realistic in themselves. If that makes any sense.

It probably doesn't lol, I wasn't entirely sure how to express my opinion on this in text.

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I'm not sure I understand.

How could a new player determine if something 'fantasy' was also realistic?

Imagine it this way.

OVERFANTASTICAL: Flying firebreathing dragon kidnaps character and another character has to go and save them. Magic is involved, etc.

REALISTIC: Two dragons talk about military spending.

Another aspect we should discuss is Science Fiction. While this hasn't been an issue yet, I've heard talk of people implementing robot soldiers by 2020, and having AI revolutions in 2030. I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

I want to keep my fantasy as like a permanent thing for rp's (Example Dragons as normal animals and anthros (furries) are also considered people but those mostly stay in country but as like me being a Dragon and king of Draconics, i believe we can have fantasy with realistic things ^w^)

Iraelia:

Another aspect we should discuss is Science Fiction. While this hasn't been an issue yet, I've heard talk of people implementing robot soldiers by 2020, and having AI revolutions in 2030. I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

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In my opinion, robot soldiers and AI revolutions in this century seem wildly unrealistic.

Syrixia:

Iraelia:

Another aspect we should discuss is Science Fiction. While this hasn't been an issue yet, I've heard talk of people implementing robot soldiers by 2020, and having AI revolutions in 2030. I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

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In my opinion, robot soldiers and AI revolutions in this century seem wildly unrealistic.

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I agree, and I don't consider Trinster's planned thing to be canon (rather an AU like Xenth's end of the world thing), but anthros are on the same scale to be fair.

Ultimately, I think it depends on how willing people are to let things go by. I'm not sure how I'd react to being an rp with a humanoid pony or fox or whatever, but I try to avoid those situation. Minor details (the Aed of Korova, for example) I can just skew as quirks of genetics.

I'm not saying its a problem that needs addressing, its just my way of approaching the 'issue'.

Syrixia:

Imagine it this way.

OVERFANTASTICAL: Flying firebreathing dragon kidnaps character and another character has to go and save them. Magic is involved, etc.

REALISTIC: Two dragons talk about military spending.

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I don't see our a dragon with magic is any more fantastical than a dragon discussing military spending.

I have handled the fantasy magical things in my nation by pushing them into a single state in my nation and even there you have to cross over into the magical realm to experience magic as a real major thing / force. People don't go to that state in my nation much, and it's mostly isolationist.

I don't mind people having magical things if they keep it contained in some way that RP is 'normal' but you can access the fantastical if you seek it out. Like dragons. I don't mind them so much as long as they aren't spewing magic. If they're more flying lizards that are intelligent or whatnot I can get that. But if you're an unending magical stream of napalm that's impervious to injury then we have a problem.
I would prefer dragons in general to remain more of a concealed thing even if they exist in the 'normal' world. They're an isolationist creature and you only really see them if you seek them out or on rare occasion one come out of isolation.

I think something would be overfantastical if you have no way of explaining how it can be / do what it does in a real biological or technological sense without doing the most laughable song and dance to get there. For example. If there were dragon like creatures that are flying lizards... OK. Smart like a dolphin... I guess so. Sentient Dragon... possible. Million year old wiser than all creatures being... uhm, no.
If it's realistic and explainable, and like Esplandia said, people are willing to accept it and we're not filling RP with the fantastic, then it could be allowable.

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As far as technology goes I don't like things to be too advanced beyond modern reality. I can see some variations in technological advancement Modern +10. I can also see with very limited exceptions some nations having certain items very limited set or individual items that have a slightly greater advancement in technology, but your people really must have pushed for that item. You can't be a backward nation and suddenly because of convenience have a ray-gun.

I also accept that some technologies we have today might be more advanced because your people took an alternate path in technology. For example maybe your people were hooked on electric cars sooner / gas cars didn't take off in your nation and so you have electrics that are more advanced than other electric cars on Eras and maybe they breach the '10 year rule.' But if you suddenly go all crazy and slap a Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future on your cars then I think I'll call that into question.
Basically, if you can build out a reasonable alternate path for a technology, and a believable reason this happened, and then a reasonable modern limitation on the tech level then maybe I'd be willing to bite.

I think that the RPs must be realistic and according to the history of each nation. I see it very disturbing that a nation land 10 million soldiers in a single landing, or send 30 000 bomber planes in a single attack.

Panama Coalition:

I think that the RPs must be realistic and according to the history of each nation. I see it very disturbing that a nation land 10 million soldiers in a single landing, or send 30 000 bomber planes in a single attack.

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Where are you seeing this? If the mods have missed something in the Eras RP threads, bring it to their attention. Eras does not use NS stats, so things like that would be investigated.

If this is related to something you saw on the RMB, ask Friently, Sanada, or any of the RMB RPers about it. It may be within their rules. RMB RP, as far as I'm aware, does use NS stats.

What I wrote is just an example.

My question is then how can realism be determined for example in the military or technology?

On the this forum that is policed by the Conclave and the moderators. The Conclave police the realism aspect of it and offer advice to nations who request help with military matters of nation building. Tbe moderators police the Godmodding aspect of it.
On the RMB I am unsure but am positive it is an aspect of the matters MadJack/StGeorge has been considering and discussing with members of the RMB community

I think we are starting to slightly get off topic here. okie back to the discussion. Since the king of Draconics is a dragon and I consider Notboss (me) to be able to breath fire but limited unless gotten used to (will do that in a post) is not getting that far into fantasy. Of course magic is too much and there is no magic involved. Considering dragons that can speak and stand on two legs and can still fly and possibly breath fire isn't OP.

Its down to - in general - the individual RPer. If there's going to be any interaction between any of my nations and yours, I'd generally ask for a human representative - or someone as close to human as possible so I can fudge it like I do with the Aed and other species - to be part of the RP.

At the same time, if you're RPing a nation of dragons and dragons alone - and I don't want this conversation to be just about dragons but Darcania's dragon concept is well thought out and I enjoy his work on it - then we just wouldn't RP. That's pretty much the line for me. I'm even fine with magic to an extent so long as its fairly realistic and not making you all powerful or invulnerable.

yeah it wouldn't be just dragons alone but I don't want someone saying "you can't be a dragon because it's unrealistic even though you talk, walk, and act like a human with dragon-like characteristics and can fly"

mcmasterdonia:

I don't see our a dragon with magic is any more fantastical than a dragon discussing military spending.

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One is high fantasy, one is urban fantasy. The high fantasy aspect implies a fantastical world, which would not fit in a realistic setting. The urban fantasy aspect implies a realistic world with fantasy elements. There's far less fantastical elements and tropes being used in the latter case than the former, so it is quite simply less fantastical.

Cogoria:

On the this forum that is policed by the Conclave and the moderators. The Conclave police the realism aspect of it and offer advice to nations who request help with military matters of nation building. Tbe moderators police the Godmodding aspect of it.
On the RMB I am unsure but am positive it is an aspect of the matters MadJack/StGeorge has been considering and discussing with members of the RMB community

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Seeing as no RMBers have commented on this thread (unless...I really am that tired), I will attempt to explain how the RMB handles the mystiks, the robots, and the norm. Yes my dear friends from the other side, there is a norm...I think.

The RMB is chaos; it is where we live, thrive, make war and merry. Our standards, which are far and in-between, allows for everything from:

- Hong Kong Empire (affectionately known as HKE): The undead immortal Emperor Yuanfu, with his laser, in space, that shoots into a black hole (it might've been a wormhole; I gave up on keeping track), that somehow magically still manages to hit whatever HKE is technically aiming the thing at.

- Dilberta - If anyone feels like looking him up, yes, he RPs as the Guardians from Destiny (woop woop! #2's out) and his leader's name is Lord Shaxx

- Spiritual Lyrical Individual Miracles (SLIM for short): He kind of reminds me of a communistic version of a titan from Attack on Titan (look it up...) who eats just about everything...except humans. I once described him as eating everything, the burnt house, the trees around the burnt house, but not its now freaked-out occupants. Recent meals include a god tied to a cross, I think some kind of mystical beast, and I think maybe asbestos. Or something equally inedible. Oh, and a bottle of vodka in celebration of a character getting engaged. Yes...he ate the bottle.

- And last but not least Lady Lala, the most dangerous and beloved leader of the Sanada Clan. She freezes just about everything she touches, can be horribly cute, but will easily rip off a man's arm like its cotton candy.

- Did I mention our Supreme Overlady of all Reality? No? Well, Kyoki Chudoku's got that one covered. She has this wicked scythe that slices into people and can wield magic (with reservations), all while giving away cookies laced with cyanide.

Friendly, normal bunch of people ain't that right? And I didn't even get to the Romans or Greeks.

The RMB itself has been self-policed by those willing to police it. Namely, Sanada, Friently, and in more recent times, the Principality (me). Friently set up a treaty that defines godmodding, the limitations of armies, etc. etc. it's basically a cure-all for both godmodding and for the militaristic aspect of RPing.

This the truth: there is almost no written, defined limit as to what your nation can use when it comes to the mystiks, the robots, and the norm. Although most nations RP in modern-day form (Aldion comes to mind as the prime example of this), there generally isn't an issue when it comes to say, Dilberta wanting to invade the ancient Greek city-states and their immortal yet always-squabbling philosophical leaders. In fact, I remember posting something like this when a modern-nation (a newcomer) wanted to invade said nation:

"I would first have to rationalize why a 23rd century technologically-advanced nation (me) would have any reason why to defend the ancient city-states of old against an army of soviets from pre-Cold War Russia."

However, as of late, having seen more and more post-modern 21st century nations attempt to either go to the stars or match the Principality in technological level, the line between acceptable 23rd century tech and godmodding began to blur again.

I have been meaning to start writing down what constitutes as legal/acceptable 23rd century tech and posting that as a new standard for the RMB. But I've been busy.

In the end, although there is no true line between acceptable and not acceptable when it comes to Fantasy/Sci-fi vs Reality; that is not an issue that RMBers want to address. Because our community thrives with there being little to no standardization. By having no standards to standardize anything by, that has become the standard (it's like how non-conformists are basically conformists to non-conformity).

This makes it much more friendlier for those nations that want to become a tribe of blue foxes (allusion to an actual RMBer), or a technologically-advanced alien race that is interested in studying humans and the way humans live or even, a Violetist (yes, we have a Violetist; based off of the actual religion of Violetism).

I know this doesn't exactly answer the question as to how we deal with fact vs fiction. But really, if a belligerent, upstart nation attempts to do something so ridiculous that it couldn't imaginably be possible, it crosses the fine line between imagination and godmodding. And that's the final and only line for us.

If it's not godmodding, and there are reasonable limitations and or hell, just reasons, for it to come into being, not like "AAAAH I'M JUST GOING TO BUILD A SPACESHIP THE SIZE OF EGYPT BECAUSE CAN," then it's generally acceptable.

Because ultimately, it's not what you RP at that determines whether or not you are accepted into the community, it's what you bring to the table as a roleplayer. Like for example:

Sanada - although scary as hell, used to run two of our biggest alliances. She is rightfully, the alpha queen of the RMB. She's very nice, is very reasonable, and makes sure everything doesn't explode too badly.

Hong Kong Empire - The Emperor spends money like he's got coffers made of diamonds or something. But he will put belligerent nations in their place from time to time and is generally good-natured.

SLIM - He's that weird funky old guy who's always drunk and eats literally anything but is very peaceful and approachable. Just make sure to not show him where you live (out of concern for your house...)

Dliberta - He just talks with us. He's peaceful and will sometimes get into fights with our more intergalactic aggressors when the situation calls for it (or the situations finds him...)

Kyoki Chudoku - He's practically a community role-model. In fact, thanks to him, I now give out muffins laced with LSD and weed. I call 'em "happy-muffins."

Although each of these nations are different, conform to no standard that I can tease out (except for, you know, the non-standardization standardization), all of them RP together, in harmony with each other.
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Anyways, I feel like I lost my train of thought somewhere in all this writing. Might be because I'm dead tired. If anyone wants to talk to me about this, you know where to find me.

Thank you for listening.

Whatever works works. But it would be good to make the framework formal so that new staff can be appointed the roles should any of those pillars of the Rmb being suggested for moderator type roles go on leave or some such

Cogoria:

Whatever works works. But it would be good to make the framework formal so that new staff can be appointed the roles should any of those pillars of the Rmb being suggested for moderator type roles go on leave or some such

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I feel like that framework should ultimately be left up to whomever becomes part of the initial staff for the RMB RP Moderators.

Respectfully, I agree, but it's unlikely that all the RMB RP Moderators, whomever they are, will all go AFK/MIA all at the same time. I'd like to disagree with the notion that the Discord/Offsite RP Moderators be able to arbitrarily appoint new RP Moderators unless in the extreme circumstance, such mass AFK/MIAs of the RMB RP Staff does come to fruition.

The solution, at that point I feel, benches then on the familiarity of the RMB RP community by the Discord/Offsite staff; which means that someone's going to have to be forced to get to know all of us in the RMB RP community (we don't bite...err, well, most of us don't).

If done properly in the worse-case scenario, the RMB functions properly with the new appointment of a new RMB RP Moderator. If done improperly, said newly-minted RMB RP Moderator will simply be ignored and tensions might flare again between our two communities.

Thank you for the feedback Cog