Entertainment Deputy Announcement

Just a Lore

Just a Lore

Eldritch Horror that Plagues Eras Cartography
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Just_a_Lore
(Since I have no where else to post this *Cough Cough* I will just post it here)

After much contemplation, I have decided to appoint Madjack as Deputy Minister of Entertainment. (Yes, it is legal, only deputies appointed by the Delegate are Government Officials) this is due to his devotion to assisting the RP section of the forum in so many ways and my unexpected slowing down due to RL event in recent days. This appointment shall ensure that there is a more consistent coverage while I try to get everything together IRL.

~Lord Lore/Francis the First of France/Andulus/Ertolia; Minister of Entertainment.
 
I thank the Minister for the Appointment and will approach this role with the same enthusiasm and application with which I bring to the Cartography role I also occupy.
 
Lord Lore:
"only deputies appointed by the Delegate are Government Officials"
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I am not sure that is correct. You see, Government Officials include those appointed (or reappointed) by the Ministers of the respective ministeries. Deputy Ministers are also required to take the oath of office and may be masked accordingly.
 
The law doesn't seem to agree with your suggestion. Regardless, I have indeed posted an oath (I was unaware it had changed to remove nation names :P).
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Lord Lore:
"only deputies appointed by the Delegate are Government Officials"
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I am not sure that is correct. You see, Government Officials include those appointed (or reappointed) by the Ministers of the respective ministeries. Deputy Ministers are also required to take the oath of office and may be masked accordingly.
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This was my understanding, as well.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Lord Lore:
"only deputies appointed by the Delegate are Government Officials"
Click to expand...
I am not sure that is correct. You see, Government Officials include those appointed (or reappointed) by the Ministers of the respective ministeries. Deputy Ministers are also required to take the oath of office and may be masked accordingly.
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Well I will be honest and say that it is a murky grey area with not much explaining in the constitution. But according to the Constitution (more specifically Article 7, Section 2), Government Officials are only A.) Security Council Members. B.) "Constitutionally Mandated Officials" (Justices, Delegate, Vice-Delegate, A.G., and Speaker.) and C.) Anyone appointed by Constitutionally Mandated Officials under their purview as permitted by law.

And since Ministers are Government Officials but not Constitutionally Mandated ones anyone they appoint is by virtue not a Government Official.
 
If memory serves, the Court has said differently. I can't remember how much of this decision is still valid given changes in how we handle RA membership and so forth.

The gist: if they are in a position which requires an Oath of Office (as D-Minister of Entertainment does), then they are government officials. Sorry Lore ;)

Now, have we got a draft for an honourary citizenship bill to allow Nierr to hold the office legally?
 
Citing the Oath of Office as proof that an office is for a Government Official would be circular reasoning, since the Legal Code only specifies that Government Officials have to take it. So one would have to define Government Official first, which means citing the Oath would be circular reasoning.

I don't know enough about Courts and TNP Law, especially its history, to refute your first point.

EDIT: Hmm... It seems the Court used similar reasoning as the above, circular as it may be, to prove that DMs are Government Officials. They also used the "implicit intent" of a few BoR clauses. Strange, but, as far as I know, legally binding, correct?
 
I took an oath of office when I held the office of Deputy Minister of Culture and Entertainment under Lennart (McMasterdonia). I have ensured my deputies take the oath in Foreign Affairs. My understanding is one cannot be considered a government official unless they have taken their oath of office.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
If memory serves, the Court has said differently.
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I dont see anything in there that pertains to deputy ministers. Even though it does say it in the spoiler in the actual text there is nothing that mentions them.

"The positions of Delegate, Vice-Delegate, Speaker, Attorney General and their applicable deputies all have specific powers outlined by The North Pacific Constitution and Legal Code."
 
We are considered to be "applicable deputies", seeing as we are appointed by the Delegate.
 
I suggest we do two things:

1. Draft an honorary citizenship bill for Madjack

2. Discuss citizenship rights for DOS nations that want to apply but physically can't make a nation

I'm in favor of either. The first one is a short term solution but it's easier, while the second is a long term solution but it'll clearly be more strenuous.
 
Darcania:
There are clarifications in the case thread the ruling comes from that says it applies to all deputies, all deputies of deputies, and turtles all the way down. http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7057305/findpost/8097813/

Again, though, I have no idea how they reasoned that. The arguments presented by them seem rather faulty, imo.
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Thats the thing Hilevile may say that after the fact but if you read their actual ruling it is not mentioned at all. You can hardly say that the comments of Hilevile (one of three justices) override or modifies the ruling. Unless you want to argue that one justice can speak for all three after the fact.
 
Lord Lore:
Thats the thing Hilevile may say that after the fact but if you read their actual ruling it is not mentioned at all. You can hardly say that the comments of Hilevile (one of three justices) override or modifies the ruling. Unless you want to argue that one justice can speak for all three after the fact.
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Court's all sorts of messed up. The ruling only added further confusion to the issue of Government Officials. Perhaps you could try again with another R4R if Nierr doesn't get the job, or you could skip that entirely and go to the RA and get citizenship for madjack and/or define deputies as government officials or not.
 
To weigh on on this as an expert:

The court case being referenced is obsolete. 100%. It has no legal bearing. The law was specifically and explicitly changed after that ruling was issued in order to fix the myriad problems that it caused. I will be sure to bring it up with the court for strikethrough when I get a chance. :)

As for the law, madjack and lord lore are correct. Government officialdom is not recursive and it does not daisy chain. The status extends only and solely to elected officials (CMEOS) and the individuals they appoint directly. Nobody else.
 
SillyString:
To weigh on on this as an expert:

The court case being referenced is obsolete. 100%. It has no legal bearing. The law was specifically and explicitly changed after that ruling was issued in order to fix the myriad problems that it caused. I will be sure to bring it up with the court for strikethrough when I get a chance. :)

As for the law, madjack and lord lore are correct. Government officialdom is not recursive and it does not daisy chain. The status extends only and solely to elected officials (CMEOS) and the individuals they appoint directly. Nobody else.
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So oaths are not required of Deputy Ministers? Is there a reason why it is custom of deputies to take an oath before being masked?
 
Some deputies are government officials - those appointed by the delegate, if any. I imagine some people also want to show their commitment to doing a good job and abiding by the law, as the oath says.

But really, it's become custom because admins have started demanding to see proof of position before they'll remask someone. You could push back, if you like, since oaths aren't required for deputies.
 
SS is correct. It's a legal curiosity that's been known for a while (I recall discussing it in #tnp last time I was there, a week or two ago).

During my term as Delegate, to avoid this issue, I was making the appointments myself (either through separate announcement threads, or by posting in the admin thread). I preferred to have all DMs take the oath and avoid the absurdity of half of them being government officials and half of them not.
 
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