Espionage Redefined

[Chasmanthe]

Noting the concern raised by a citizen earlier today, I believe we should redefine the crime of espionage as set out in chapter 1 of the legal code.

1. Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

will be amended so that it reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of that region.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.
8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.
9. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
10. The Speaker will update the preceding clause as appropriate.

2. The subsequent clauses of Chapter 1 will be renumbered appropriately.

3. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

1. Section 2 of the criminal code will be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of that region The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.
8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.
9. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
10. The Speaker will update the preceding clause as appropriate.

2. The subsequent clauses of Chapter 1 will be renumbered appropriately.

3. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

This proposal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why would I, as a citizen of TNP care about Europeia? And why should I want our laws and courts to even be involved?

 

[r3naissanc3r]

For reference, this relates to the concerns raised here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7114105/1/

I will post my own thoughts on this bill later.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

i would be more comfortable with a more generic formulation given the treaty language; since the treaty language was supposedly "self-executing." We can't be adding specific regions by name into the Criminal Code; surely there is a way to have a phrasing that can be used for other similar treaty provisions with other regions and avoid the absurdity of having to add a provision for every treaty with other regions in the future with similar provisions?

 

[Cormac]

We could instead follow the other possible course of action Eluvatar mentioned, which is to add a clause allowing the Speaker to update the list of regions we've agreed to prohibit espionage against -- similar to Section 1.1, Clause 5, dealing with Treason. This would see Section 1.2 amended to read as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage

6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
a. Espionage is further defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within any region with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit espionage against, for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of that region. At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit espionage against Europeia.
b. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

I have also used lettered subclauses rather than renumbering because renumbering is against my religion.

 

[Chasmanthe]

That's reasonable but I really don't agree with the law saying "Espionage is defined as X" and then saying "Espionage is also defined as Y".

How about this?

6 a. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
b. "Spying" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within any region with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against, for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of that region. At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against Europeia.
c. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

i.e. keeping them separate crimes with the same penalty

3. Espionage or spying will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

 

[Cormac]

I don't have any objection to that.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

I'm still not comfortable with putting names of other regions into our criminal code. I could live with the rest of the revision if that sentence could be a generic power of the Speaker to post someone as an addendum to the Legal Code rather than as part of the Code itself.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

We already have names of other regions in section 1 of our criminal code in a similar clause, listing those we have alliances with. I don't see a problem with it there, nor do I see a problem with it here.

EDIT: originally said the alliance list clause was in the Constitution, which was an error.

 

[Chasmanthe]

edit: moved

I think we should proceed with these changes. Does anybody have any more objections?

Is the next stage a formal debate or a motion to vote?

 

[SillyString]

The next stage would be formal debate, but I'm not really happy with the wording of this suggestion.

 

[Chasmanthe]

better now, right?

Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6 a. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
b. "Spying" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within any region with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against, for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of that region. At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against Europeia.
c. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

and clause 3 of the penal code which currently reads as follows:

3. Espionage will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

be amended as follows so the penalty for this new definition (spying) be same as for the old definition of espionage:

3. Espionage or spying will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

 

[SillyString]

No, I mean, the definition of "Spying" I'm not sure I like. It's a bit awkward.

 

[Chasmanthe]

but it's defined the same manner as espionage is already defined

are you saying the definition of espionage is also awkward?

 

[SillyString]

It's the parts that aren't the same that read funny.

"within any region with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against" and "At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against", specifically. The prepositions there aren't really doing it for me.

 

[Chasmanthe]

How about this?

Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6 a. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
b. "Spying" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within a "prohibited region" for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of that region.
c. A "prohibited region" is defined as a region against which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying.
d. At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against Europeia.
e. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

and clause 3 of the penal code which currently reads as follows:

3. Espionage will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

be amended as follows so the penalty for this new definition (spying) be same as for the old definition of espionage:

3. Espionage or spying will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

Whether I vote for this or not, I do believe the following subclause needs an additional correction:

c. A "prohibited region" is defined as a region against with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying.

"against which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit" makes no sense. "with which The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit" more logically convenes the existence of a treaty as a condition of the defeinion.

 

[Chasmanthe]

GS, I think your wording is open to confusion of against versus with. The spying concerned is the spying against Europeia, not the spying with Europeia. So I've redone it:

Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6 a. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
b. "Spying" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within a "prohibited region" for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of that region.
c. A "prohibited region" is defined as a region against which spying is prohibited by a treaty between The North Pacific and that region.
d. At this time The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit spying against Europeia.
e. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

and clause 3 of the penal code which currently reads as follows:

3. Espionage will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

be amended as follows so the penalty for this new definition (spying) be same as for the old definition of espionage:

3. Espionage or spying will be punished by the suspension of speech and/or voting rights for whatever finite duration the Court sees fit.

 

[Eluvatar]

If I may suggest:

1. Section 2 of the criminal code will be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of the region The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.
8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.
9. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
10. The Speaker will update the preceding clause as appropriate.

2. The subsequent clauses of Chapter 1 will be renumbered appropriately.

3. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

 

[Chasmanthe]

Renumbering clauses that way is against Cormac's religion.

So I have tweaked your suggestion slightly:

1. Section 2 of the criminal code will be amended with the following changes:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. a. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of that region The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
b. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.
c. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
d. The Speaker will update the preceding subclause as appropriate.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

2. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

 

[Eluvatar]

Adding subclauses to the legal code in this manner violates its style guidelines:

In order to present a clearer and more comprehensible legal system, the Regional Assembly undertakes to keep the law of the North Pacific organized and clear. If a minor error is found in this Legal Code, the Speaker will update it on the published instructions of the Court, unless a Regional Assembly member objects within five days. This Code will be divided into several Chapters, which may contain Sections. Every operative sentence must be a numbered clause, numbered within a Chapter. Clauses may be referenced by chapter and clause number.

(Underlining added).

 

[Chasmanthe]

Oh, I see.

OP has been updated.

 

[SillyString]

I object to the inclusion of both 8 and 9. Listing TNP as a protected region twice is redundant.

 

[Eluvatar]

9 is defined by 8...

 

[SillyString]

Yes, and TNP is doubly defined. "Protected includes TNP... Protected regions are TNP and". It's silly.

 

[Eluvatar]

9 is not a definitional clause. It is a descriptive clause, the contents of which are to be maintained by the Speaker to comport with the definition in 8.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

Why don't we simply prohibit spying against any region the North Pacific is allied with.

 

[Eluvatar]

Because we'd be giving something for nothing. Most of our allies have not committed to prohibit their citizens spying on us. Keep in mind that this isn't regulation of TNP intelligence, but what our citizens do on the side.

 

[Chasmanthe]

Motion to vote on the OP, or enter formal debate or what have you.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Chas' proposal is now in Formal Debate. Formal debate is scheduled to end on 2013-11-02.

Chas, could you do me a favor, and post a "clean" version of the bill in the OP (i.e. without the editing markup)?

 

[Chasmanthe]

I've added clean before and after versions in spoiler in the OP.

 

[SillyString]

Chas, he means one without the red and blue markup, since we're not going to be adding red, blue, strikeouts, and bolding into the legal code.

8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.

Still don't like the phrasing here. It just sounds very awkward, and I entirely disagree with Elu that the double mention of TNP is necessary.

Might I suggest something like,

8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as any region The North Pacific has agreed to prohibit its citizens from committing espionage against.

That way, TNP can still be included in clause 9, as the TNP RA has declared espionage against TNP to be a crime; Europeia can be included, as the TNP RA has accepted a treaty which prohibits espionage against Europeia; there's no double definition of TNP as protected; and the wording is flexible enough to accommodate not just treaties but also unilateral declarations by TNP, should the RA choose to make any.

 

[Chasmanthe]

I had the clean version in spoiler tags. I have now redone the OP without spoilers.

1. Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

will be amended so that it reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of that region.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.
8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.
9. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
10. The Speaker will update the preceding clause as appropriate.

2. The subsequent clauses of Chapter 1 will be renumbered appropriately.

3. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

Regarding your suggestion, I disagree. Currently espionage is only a crime if it is committed against TNP, and TNP has only agreed to make it a crime in Europeia by the Europeia treaty that it ratified. If the RA were to make any declarations that add or remove the regions that fall into the definition that we have proposed, then the Speaker would still need to amend the Legal Code in any case. If they are making a declaration not by treaty, then the RA can re-write the definition of protected regions to include those it wants to declare protected without a treaty.

I'm sure there must be some benefit you are pointing to for giving protection to a region without the delegates entering an official treaty negotiation, but I can't think right now what that would be.

 

[SillyString]

I'm sure there must be some benefit you are pointing to for giving protection to a region without the delegates entering an official treaty negotiation, but I can't think right now what that would be.

Yes - the flexibility to not be stuck to the specific word "treaty". This being TNP, I guarantee that's going to be a problem in the future.

Plus the redundancy fix on TNP.

 

[Chasmanthe]

I'm sure there must be some benefit you are pointing to for giving protection to a region without the delegates entering an official treaty negotiation, but I can't think right now what that would be.

Yes - the flexibility to not be stuck to the specific word "treaty". This being TNP, I guarantee that's going to be a problem in the future.

Plus the redundancy fix on TNP.

Good point. If TNP had joined SovCon it might not have been covered by this clause?

I'd still be inclined to take a gamble on this, and stick to giving that status only to regions the delegate has signed a treaty requiring it. The only thing stopping a new treaty negotiation is the willingness of parties to agree. So we might as well stick with the inflexible treaty wording.

 

[Eluvatar]

Chas, he means one without the red and blue markup, since we're not going to be adding red, blue, strikeouts, and bolding into the legal code.

8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as The North Pacific itself as well as any region The North Pacific has agreed by treaty to prohibit its citizens spying against.

Still don't like the phrasing here. It just sounds very awkward, and I entirely disagree with Elu that the double mention of TNP is necessary.

Might I suggest something like,

8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as any region The North Pacific has agreed to prohibit its citizens from committing espionage against.

That way, TNP can still be included in clause 9, as the TNP RA has declared espionage against TNP to be a crime; Europeia can be included, as the TNP RA has accepted a treaty which prohibits espionage against Europeia; there's no double definition of TNP as protected; and the wording is flexible enough to accommodate not just treaties but also unilateral declarations by TNP, should the RA choose to make any.

Your proposal would not include the determination that TNP is a "protected region" in the legal code. I think it belongs there.

In addition, I don't think the executive should be able to agree to prohibit espionage against other regions without a treaty.

 

[SillyString]

Yes it would, Elu. It would be included under clause 9. I said that quite explicitly. >.>

The executive would not be able to make such an agreement, as the RA is the voice of TNP - though one could change that to "...any region that the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific has agreed..."

 

[Iro]

Yes it would, Elu. It would be included under clause 9. I said that quite explicitly. >.>

The executive would not be able to make such an agreement, as the RA is the voice of TNP - though one could change that to "...any region that the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific has agreed..."

Disagree. It seems to me that if any region half-allied with us and reasonably in touch with TNP politics found out about this clause, it could create a diplomatic fiasco when they found out- from their point of view- that the RA essentially authorized citizens to spy on them.

EDIT: That is, if we didn't affirm that region. And since it's TNP, it's almost guaranteed that we won't.

 

[Eluvatar]

I believe Asta is suggesting this:

1. Section 2 of the criminal code which currently reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially sanctioned by the lawful government of The North Pacific as governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.

will be amended so that it reads as follows:

Section 1.2: Espionage
6. "Espionage" is defined as the use of a Nation or Persona within a protected region for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region not officially and legitimately sanctioned by the lawful government of that region.
7. The information gathered must be of a nature that a person that has not registered on the official forums or attained public office would be unable to access it without cracking technical security measures.
8. A "protected region" for the purposes of this section is defined as any region The North Pacific has agreed to prohibit its citizens from committing espionage against.
9. At this time the protected regions are The North Pacific and Europeia.
10. The Speaker will update the preceding clause as appropriate.

2. The subsequent clauses of Chapter 1 will be renumbered appropriately.

3. This bill will not take effect until signed by the Delegate or the Regional Assembly has passed an override of the Delegate's veto.

In this alternate version of the bill, the only part which indicates TNP itself is a protected region is clause (9), which describes the list as "Currently", and is followed by clause (10) which requires the Speaker to update clause (9) "as appropriate." Under the original bill, "as appropriate" is necessarily whenever a treaty is ratified to which (8) applies. Under this alternate bill, matters are less clear. In addition, this alternate bill would either grant (9) legal rather than explanatory meaning or it would mean TNP was not protected.

I disagree with SillyString's suggested change, quite strongly. In this case, having "The North Pacific" mentioned 3 times in 2 clauses is not so great a price to pay for clarity, in my opinion.

 

[Flemingovia]

Is there really a difference between espionage and spying? I thought they were the same thing, just one being the French word and the other being the English word.

I therefore propose the following wording:

"Espionage" shall be defined as spying carried out by a French person.

"Spying" shall be defined as a espionage carried out by a non-French person.

Does my amended wording find a second?