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Statement on The Coup of The South Pacific

C

Cove

TNPer
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Statement on the Coup of The South Pacific

Greetings. The North Pacific has been incredibly troubled by the recent events in The South Pacific, so feels compelled to release this statement.

The North Pacific will always stand by our allies in The South Pacific, and will support the legitimate government. In this case, we regard Milograd, who is hereby declared persona non grata in The North Pacific as the illegitimate and illegal delegate of our ally.

The North Pacific condemns the ejection of natives of The South Pacific, and considers such actions illegal, and we stand by the legitimate representatives of the government of The South Pacific.

An attack on The Coalition of The South Pacific is an attack on The North Pacific, and we will not tolerate such actions.

The North Pacific promises all its available resources, both diplomatically and militarly to helping to restore The South Pacific to the rule of it's legitimate, native government.

Signed,
Jamie Anumia, Delegate of The North Pacific
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CAn I ask what Milograd being "persona Non Grata" actually means?

He is not a TNP nation, so that is not what is meant. Is he persona non grata on the forum? in which case will you be asking the Admins to do a forum ban?

Or is it just meaningless rhetoric?
 
Declaring someone persona non grata is a recourse for handling foreign envoys who have diplomatic immunity from normal legal charges. From a practical standpoint, it could mean that the nation Milograd is bannable on sight should it enter TNP. Not sure what it means for the forum. I suppose Jamie could tell him he shall not post. If he shows up anyway, maybe we could have crackpot militiamen "detain" him and then turn him over to border patrol. Or TSA officials at the airport can do what they do.
 
To be blunt, Jamie doesn't have the authority to unilaterally declare an individual unwelcome in this region, unless he does so in the context of exercising an emergency ban ingame for security reasons, which of course must promptly be followed by submitting releavant filings as a result. As a general rule, I'm against condemning individuals for things they choose to do - I think it's in poor taste, this is a goddamn game after all - but in this particular case, not only is it in poor taste, but I'm fairly sure it's completely meaningless puffery.
 
Well he likely does have the authority to refuse Milograd any form of diplomatic immunity or masking but I'm not sure he could do anything if Milo applied for citizenship. Though I think we'd then likely have a case for prosecution as violating a TNP law (i.e.: the treaty with TSP)
 
Kingborough:
Well he likely does have the authority to refuse Milograd any form of diplomatic immunity or masking but I'm not sure he could do anything if Milo applied for citizenship. Though I think we'd then likely have a case for prosecution as violating a TNP law (i.e.: the treaty with TSP)
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No, actually. We saw this in TNP v. JAL 2. The law doesn't punish someone for an action they took unless they were legally bound by our laws at the time of the action. Fundamental jurisdictional issue.

Edit: As for diplomatic immunity, we don't actually have such a concept here, at least not codified in law. So, to the extent he can deny something that doesn't even exist, sure.
 
As much as I like GBMs take of handing Milograd back to the Airport officials:

My understanding of the use of that phrase is to indicate that Jamie has had his masking as a diplomatic envoy revoked and that we do not and will not recognize him as the official representative. Jamie can clarify that further when he comes online.
 
I reject the idea that declaring someone persona non grata is in bad taste. I think it's the right phrase to use, since as, said by McMasterdonia, it's being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government - if he applied for citizenship, obviously I have no control in that respect - and hypothetically, he has every right to do so. Also, in response to the point that 'it's a game' - I'm aware of such, I can be on 'opposite sides' with someone in the gameplay and political sense while being on good terms with someone outside of it, I'm not unreasonable in that I judge people purely for everything an individual does in gameplay, it's a reckless and ridiculous thing to do if someone chose to do so.
 
Jamie:
I reject the idea that declaring someone persona non grata is in bad taste. I think it's the right phrase to use, since as, said by McMasterdonia, it's being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government - if he applied for citizenship, obviously I have no control in that respect - and hypothetically, he has every right to do so. Also, in response to the point that 'it's a game' - I'm aware of such, I can be on 'opposite sides' with someone in the gameplay and political sense while being on good terms with someone outside of it, I'm not unreasonable in that I judge people purely for everything an individual does in gameplay, it's a reckless and ridiculous thing to do if someone chose to do so.
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Well said Jamie.
 
I would like to know what justification you are currently using to continue to declare Milograd persona non grata, especially when he has come to the forums as a representative of The Pacific, and not The South Pacific.

You stated that declaring him persona non grata was "being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government" How can this continue to be the case when he is no longer in power there or even attempting to represent them?
 
Abstain:
I would like to know what justification you are currently using to continue to declare Milograd persona non grata, especially when he has come to the forums as a representative of The Pacific, and not The South Pacific.

You stated that declaring him persona non grata was "being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government" How can this continue to be the case when he is no longer in power there or even attempting to represent them?
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I think the real questions ought to be why did the NPO appoint Milograd, and why did he accept? Neither action can be interpreted as very diplomatic. If The Pacific is interested in strengthening relations between our regions, they might have sent someone with less baggage.
 
Speaking from a speculative standpoint, probably because he is a long standing citizen of The Pacific and has experience with all sorts of governmental tasks. As Limi said, Milograd is here in his capacity as Pacifican Foreign Affairs Attache, not as a contending representative of The South Pacific.
 
Great Bights Mum:
Abstain:
I would like to know what justification you are currently using to continue to declare Milograd persona non grata, especially when he has come to the forums as a representative of The Pacific, and not The South Pacific.

You stated that declaring him persona non grata was "being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government" How can this continue to be the case when he is no longer in power there or even attempting to represent them?
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I think the real questions ought to be why did the NPO appoint Milograd, and why did he accept? Neither action can be interpreted as very diplomatic. If The Pacific is interested in strengthening relations between our regions, they might have sent someone with less baggage.
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GBM, TNP has absolutely no say on our staffing decisions. He's our foreign affairs attache. End of story. Denying our representation is a poor move on the part of TNP.
 
Abstain:
I would like to know what justification you are currently using to continue to declare Milograd persona non grata, especially when he has come to the forums as a representative of The Pacific, and not The South Pacific.

You stated that declaring him persona non grata was "being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government" How can this continue to be the case when he is no longer in power there or even attempting to represent them?
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I too would like an explanation.
 
the pacific has the right to appoint anyone they wish as an ambassador. The North Pacific has the right to refuse anyone they wish as ambassador, especially when that appointment is seen as political dick waving.

Milograd is persona non grata in tnp. Pick someone else if you care about representation in tnp.
 
Funkadelia:
Why is he still a persona non grata? He hasn't been the Delegate of TSP for a while now. He is simply the attache for the NPO, and not asking for representation as the Delegate of TSP.
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Because couping our treatied allies should have consequences?

And I say that as someone whose been friends with Milo a hell of a lot longer than anyone in 'The' Pacific...
 
Funkadelia:
Speaking from a speculative standpoint, probably because he is a long standing citizen of The Pacific and has experience with all sorts of governmental tasks. As Limi said, Milograd is here in his capacity as Pacifican Foreign Affairs Attache, not as a contending representative of The South Pacific.
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TSP could have said the same too, recently. He's also proven to be incredibly untrustworthy. Any region willing to put Milograd in a position of power and responsibility either knows something we don't or has major issues.
 
Belschaft:
Funkadelia:
Speaking from a speculative standpoint, probably because he is a long standing citizen of The Pacific and has experience with all sorts of governmental tasks. As Limi said, Milograd is here in his capacity as Pacifican Foreign Affairs Attache, not as a contending representative of The South Pacific.
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TSP could have said the same too, recently. He's also proven to be incredibly untrustworthy. Any region willing to put Milograd in a position of power and responsibility either knows something we don't or has major issues.
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<NPO Hat> Nice to see that reconciliation and tolerance are completely out of the question, at least from this TSP citizen, and that the vitriol continues to flow freely.
 
Gaspo:
Belschaft:
Funkadelia:
Speaking from a speculative standpoint, probably because he is a long standing citizen of The Pacific and has experience with all sorts of governmental tasks. As Limi said, Milograd is here in his capacity as Pacifican Foreign Affairs Attache, not as a contending representative of The South Pacific.
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TSP could have said the same too, recently. He's also proven to be incredibly untrustworthy. Any region willing to put Milograd in a position of power and responsibility either knows something we don't or has major issues.
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<NPO Hat> Nice to see that reconciliation and tolerance are completely out of the question, at least from this TSP citizen, and that the vitriol continues to flow freely.
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I'm a TNP citizen, thank you very much. And making the simple observation that two years of loyal service and trust in TSP meaning nothing to Milograd, any other region should have serious grounds to mistrust him.
 
Belschaft:
Funkadelia:
Speaking from a speculative standpoint, probably because he is a long standing citizen of The Pacific and has experience with all sorts of governmental tasks. As Limi said, Milograd is here in his capacity as Pacifican Foreign Affairs Attache, not as a contending representative of The South Pacific.
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TSP could have said the same too, recently. He's also proven to be incredibly untrustworthy. Any region willing to put Milograd in a position of power and responsibility either knows something we don't or has major issues.
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<NPO hat> As always Bel, your concerns are noted. It feels good to know things other people don't.
 
Funkadelia:
So now you're blatantly denying the fact that you're a TSP citizen?
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Of course not. Everyone knows I'm a TSP citizen. But I'm posting in TNP, and to be a labeled as this TSP citizen is insulting. I don't refer to Gaspo and Karp as these NPO Senators do I?
 
Hileville:
Funkadelia:
So now you're blatantly denying the fact that you're a TSP citizen?
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Haven't you ever heard of duality? :P
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Yes but Belschaft, when called a TSP citizen, essentially denied it by saying "I'm a TNP citizen, thank you very much." I don't see it to be entirely sane to define "duality" as being able to have split personalities as well.
 
Belschaft:
Funkadelia:
So now you're blatantly denying the fact that you're a TSP citizen?
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Of course not. Everyone knows I'm a TSP citizen. But I'm posting in TNP, and to be a labeled as this TSP citizen is insulting. I don't refer to Gaspo and Karp as these NPO Senators do I?
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At least not publicly you don't.

Hileville:
Funkadelia:
So now you're blatantly denying the fact that you're a TSP citizen?
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Haven't you ever heard of duality? :P
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Refreshing to see you've come around.
 
It's quite hypocritical of Gaspo to call Belschaft a TSP Citizen in this circumstance.

I imagine we won't need to wait very long for a statement regarding Milograd.
 
I'd like to apologize for their delay. I'm currently rather ill which has cut my computer time slightly. I don't yet have time to post a full statement, though I will hopefully clear up some concerns.

It is the policy of the TNP government that Milograd's status as PNG extends to any attempt for him to be diplomat as a whole, which is why we feel unable to accept him as such. We do understand why The Pacific may not approve of our stance on this issue, though we intend to attempt to come to some kind of agreement on this issue.
 
<NPO Hat, for the duration of this thread>

One of many factors considered in appointing Milograd to his present position was the impact this internal decision would have on our neighboring Pacifics. Given the rather vitriolic nature of The South Pacific's behavior of late, we expected nothing less from them. The North Pacific, however, was rather explicit in its statements regarding Milograd. We looked to what The North Pacific's Delegate, Jamie, said regarding Milograd's status in TNP. Jamie was rather explicit. Here's what he said, in this very thread:
I think it's the right phrase to use, since as, said by McMasterdonia, it's being used to show that Milograd is unwelcome in the sense that he is not an official representative of the The South Pacific government
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That statement, evidently, was a lie. Jamie was unequivocal - he explicitly confined the declaration of persona non grata to Milograd attempting to represent The South Pacific. The Pacific considered this very public, very clear statement from the Delegate of The North Pacific when considering Milograd's appointment. We believed, erroneously it would seem, that The North Pacific would abide by its word, would keep its promises. That is clearly not the case.

The North Pacific lied to The Pacific. Jamie lied to The Pacific. Regardless of the insult inherent in the rejection of a diplomatic envoy, this serious breach of trust by Jamie has seriously damaged what were otherwise friendly relations between our two regions. This lie, this insult, has done harm that may never be repaired.

From this point forward, The Pacific must expect nothing more than duplicity, lies, and dishonesty from The North Pacific's leadership. We deeply regret that the actions of this Delegate have so harmed our longstanding trust in The North Pacific. Jamie has ignored attempts to reach him for three days to discuss this matter, and now comes out with this insulting statement. We fear that Jamie's dishonesty has irreparably harmed our ability to trust The North Pacific.
 
Given what relations between our regions were like in 2004, I think we'll live.

I suspect that it is the Pacific's actions that are more of a problem in this case, as then, however.
 
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