Romanoffia's attempt at deceiving the RA

Kiwi

Kiwi

TNPer
As a point of clarification, some will know that my biggest belief for TNP is that the RA should have the final say in all matters where practicably possible. I think it is the duty of all elected officials in the North Pacific to be transparent and ultimately avoid deceiving the Regional Assembly.

From this point onwards I will directly quote a post I made in the private part of the forum dedicated to the Council of Five. A few people I have spoken to have requested the full logs for the relevant Council of Five meeting and they are located here.

KiwiTaicho:
One of my big concerns about the Council of Five is about transparency and letting the RA know about our internal workings as much as possible.

What has disgusted me, particularly with Roman and Unibot of late is this deceptive style of politics you are both undertaking. A perfect example is this: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6942693/

It is well known that I am a Defender by nature and deed, and despise Raiderism, but if the people of the region want Raiderism, I will push for it as a result of this poll and write up legislation accordingly even though I despise it.
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This gives the impression that regardless of the outcome, he will follow the natural wishes of the RA. At least this is my interpretation. This is important to me because I was elected on my belief in the RA having the final say.

These #tnp-cabinet logs seem to say otherwise...

[15:40] <Romanoffia> Yes, it's anonymous just to see the balance in the RA.
[15:40] <Unibot> >_>
[15:41] <Unibot> I don't think you're helping your cause here.
[15:41] <Romanoffia> Remember, I can refuse to actually write the legislation and it dies there but...
[15:41] <Romanoffia> You think Flem can be funny about legislation, you ain't seen nothing yet.
[15:41] <Unibot> roman, you need to take the neutral option out :P
[15:41] <Unibot> Seriously
[15:42] <Romanoffia> Nah, it shows that neutrality is not an option in the long run.
[15:42] <Unibot> If I log on and its 15- raider, 5- defender, I'm going to slap you.
[15:42] <Romanoffia> Trust me on this, it will be epic.
[15:42] <Unibot> And frankly, I think that's whats going to happen.
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The only reason I am not pursuing fraud charges or a recall is because I don't think they would be successful. The only reason I'm not posting this in a more public forum is because I don't want to engage in that kind of mudslinging.

If I see Roman or Unibot doing this kind of thing again i will post anything I find in it's entirety.

This type of deceptive politics is disgusting. You're simply proving that you both cannot separate your defender aligned views from your role of representing those who have elected you.
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Now this might not seem like a big issue but Roman refuses to acknowledge his mistake, will not apologize and desist from such behaviour in future.

Therefore I feel that there is no other recourse but to post it here. I am happy to answer an questions relating to this matter. I will also point out that there is one inaccuracy in the above log and that's that I spoke to Grosse about pursuing Fraud charges and he was of the impression that this style of politics meant that such a charge was unlikely to be successful. A sentiment that I shared.
 
Ummmm. I have read this through five times and I fail to see what Roman has done that is so disgusting.

and yes, this IS mudslinging. By the very way that you titled this thread you have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner, by the old argument that "if you can't beat them, smear them."

This is a sickening trend in TNP which is slowly dragging the region down. I blame Eluvatar for starting it, and have nothing but contempt for those who continue the downward trend.

You, sir, sicken me.
 
I agree with Flem, I don't like what we're seeing here.

I also have read through the log, and I don't see the problem.
 
Read through the -whole- log of the meeting. Both of you. You'll get a much better sense of the point being made here, and there's actually some more abysmal things said in there.

I'm just formulating a full, proper response to this - right now I'm just seething at some of the things that were said.
 
flemingovia:
Ummmm. I have read this through five times and I fail to see what Roman has done that is so disgusting.

and yes, this IS mudslinging. By the very way that you titled this thread you have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner, by the old argument that "if you can't beat them, smear them."

This is a sickening trend in TNP which is slowly dragging the region down. I blame Eluvatar for starting it, and have nothing but contempt for those who continue the downward trend.

You, sir, sicken me.
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Are you talking about the nature of this thread or the publication of the log of a meeting which is supposed to have its transcripts published?
 
The publication of the Log with the heading "Romanoffia's attempt at deceiving the RA" with the words "This type of deceptive politics is disgusting" turns it from being a report to being an editorial.

It is a smear campaign of the worst sort. Either KiwiTaiko lacks the evidence or he lacks the ability to bring a prosecution, so (once again) we see someone decide to smear instead.
 
Tyler:
Cant we just ban all defenders, we seem to be having trouble with them in general.
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No.

But yes, read through the whole log. Apparently raiding is treasonous and the RA is a tool to get rid of raiders... o.O
 
This Publication is nothing sort of political mud slinging. It is very disappointing to see a minister of communications stoop to this level though in my opinion this behavior was more than likely encouraged by the Delegate . This is low down behavior on any level .What this shows is The Delegates supporters will stoop to any level to destroy there political opponents. They have no Honor and bring new meaning to the word megalomania. I also get the impression that some executive branch officials would prefer a one party state. I also believe calling this publication slander would be a grave understatement. In my opinion if we have to ban some one from the region Eluvatar whose pathological behavior patterns that of U.S. President Richard Nixon (1969-1974) would be a prime candidate.
 
So scary my computer decided to post that twice. *rawr*


Just the idea of kicking out all raiders or defenders is just freaking absurd and just no. Stop. No. Like..there are so many gifs that reflect my opinion on that.
 
peoples empire:
This Publication is nothing sort of political mud slinging. It is very disappointing to see a minister of communications stoop to this level though in my opinion this behavior was more than likely encouraged by the Delegate . This is low down behavior on any level .What this shows is The Delegates supporters will stoop to any level to destroy there political opponents. They have no Honor and bring new meaning to the word megalomania. I also get the impression that some executive branch officials would prefer a one party state. I also believe calling this publication slander would be a grave understatement.
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Yep, I'll do anything to undermine the cause of defenders in TNP. And my use of proportional representation in the Council is just a clever ruse to conceal my real plan to marginalize any minority party through dirty tricks. :yes:
 
Tyler:
Cant we just ban all defenders, we seem to be having trouble with them in general.
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Well, that is a little bit generalistic.

Did you know our delegate is a defender?
 
Are people taking crazy pills here or am I actually reading something supporting a unilateral ban on defenders? Cause that's rather nutty, outlandish, and incredibly extreme. You're not helping your cause at all, this is ridiculous.
 
I think only Tyler is suggesting we ban all Defenders, and no one else.

I, personally, am not a fan. I remember in 2005 when Raiders were banned from the government, not a fun time.
 
Well uh...

that log was long, so if the people who are offended could split out the biggest quotes that I should read and then I'll re-read that and the section around it, that would be wonderful.

Other than that, this looks like a massive attempt to attack Romanoffia and Unibot for their viewpoints, and just their viewpoints alone.

Oh, and shut up Tyler, you're not talking sense at all.
 
As I have not read the whole log yet, I'll hold off from judging that.

As for Tyler. Please be trolling. Pleeease be trolling.
 
Yeah, really, Tyler, responding "My point exactly" to "The delegate is a defender" makes no sense. And no, I do not support you, no matter how you interpreted my post.
 
Okay... So can we just agree that we don't Agree with Tyler's..... *looks at the censorship squad* ..... Very Controversial Opinion.

I don't think this needs to become a bash on Tyler thread. Enough of us have replied on that matter. There is a more important topic at hand here.
 
Earth:
Eluvatar:
That Romanoffia will say very strange things should be news to no one.
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That it's just kind of accepted is the scary bit.
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This, lots. If a raider came in and spouted crazy stuff, would they be called out? Of course they would. This is equally as daft and stupid and against ideals of democracy and freedom as any suggestions that an extreme raider might make. And might I note the distinct -lack- of said extreme raider.

The log is long, Mahaj, but you won't get a feel for the whole thing unless you read it - you also lose context as soon as you start picking and choosing.
 
Tim:
Okay... So can we just agree that we don't Agree with Tyler's..... *looks at the censorship squad* ..... Very Controversial Opinion.
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Oh you can call his proposal totally idiotic if you want. Just no personal attacks please.

Granted, I'm not sure how thoroughly I can enforce that, but, meh >_>
 
Ok - I read through the whole log. The part that is quoted in the OP certainly is tame compared to some of the other tidbits in the log.

There are a few things here that I'd like to state, and these are only my opinion. I believe every TNP'er has the right to their opinion and a right to try to convince the rest of us that their opinion should be the guiding principle within TNP. If Roman doesn't want TNP to be associated with 'raider' I believe that he has every right to do so. I believe that if he cannot distinguish between 'ok to raid' and 'raider' that's fine too.

There are those among us who want TNP to be defined by the R/D paradigm and Roman seems to be among them. However, it seems that many TNP'ers like myself do not want to be defined by that paradigm. One can hardly count Grosse 'raider' and yet he edited the recently passed NPA doctrine which does allow for raiding.

The question about raiding/defending is getting tiresome and I will fight tooth and nail for every member of the RA to be able to discuss their opinion regardless of whether I agree with it or not. That is the spirit of democracy and that should be, in my opinion, how people know us. Sure, we may disagree on many things, many important things, but we believe in our rights as individuals to hold our own opinions.

Roman's rantings in the log undermine this spirit significantly and it's disappointing to read his commentary. Both Unibot and McM were correct in that the raider option would win. I didn't vote in the poll because I thought it was silly and there's no need to stick to the R/D paradigm. Roman disagrees but I think he finds himself in the minority of TNP'ers - a vocal minority - but based on the NPA doctrine vote a minority nonetheless.

In my month back in the RA, I'm saddened by the personal attacks, zero sum games, and intolerant attitudes I've seen displayed in some of our discussions. There's no need to kick out raiders or defenders or neutrals. We're not going on a witch hunt to root out every 'undesirable'. I hope the RA rejects Roman's suggestions in the log and chooses the TNP way - democracy.
 
Many of us feel that we want a new military, but not one defined by the raider / defender paradigm.

I would like to see a military built on the new jihad / infidel paradigm. we attack anyone who will not convert to Flemingovianism.

Could be a LOT of fun.
 
I will address the majority of the important comments and concerns.

flemingovia:
Ummmm. I have read this through five times and I fail to see what Roman has done that is so disgusting.
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My literary prose may be lacking but people I have talked to found it very straightforward to understand.

He has lied to the regional assembly. End of story. He does not deny that he has lied to the regional assembly. I have posted this in... you guessed it... the regional assembly. I cannot put this more simply. I will not let it become common place for officials to lie through their teeth to get the legislation they wanted passed, passed.

Flemingovia:
and yes, this IS mudslinging. By the very way that you titled this thread you have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner, by the old argument that "if you can't beat them, smear them."

This is a sickening trend in TNP which is slowly dragging the region down. I blame Eluvatar for starting it, and have nothing but contempt for those who continue the downward trend.
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If you have a problem with the title - please suggest another that reflects both the nature, content and seriousness of the issue at hand.

As for mudslinging - I expressed a desire a week+ ago to avoid this very outcome but Roman refused to acknowledge his wrongdoing and treated it as a laughing matter. I cannot comment further because said dialogue was in the private forum for the Council of Five although you can see those logs as an admin. If you would like the post itself moved and released so people can see it, please feel free to complain to the rest of cabinet. Because I have nothing to hide.

The truly dangerous trend here is that the government of TNP cannot release information about another member of the government without it being met with hostility and suspicion. The facts of this situation are not in dispute. Be very careful what you say as this has the potential to set a dangerous precedent.

Flemingovia:
You, sir, sicken me.
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Sorry but he was engaging in deceptive politics. No one can dispute that. And it IS disgusting which is a perfectly valid opinion. If every negative comment is mudslinging, your post is much worse because at least mine addresses the matter at hand. Yours simply seeks to undermine me.

Flemingovia:
It is a smear campaign of the worst sort. Either KiwiTaiko lacks the evidence or he lacks the ability to bring a prosecution, so (once again) we see someone decide to smear instead.
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Yes Flem, last time I checked I'm not the Attorney-General so believe it or not, I can't bring a prosecution.

Tyler:
Cant we just ban all defenders, we seem to be having trouble with them in general.
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......................

Flemingovia]Is kiwitaiko a defender:
This Publication is nothing sort of political mud slinging. It is very disappointing to see a minister of communications stoop to this level though in my opinion this behavior was more than likely encouraged by the Delegate . This is low down behavior on any level .What this shows is The Delegates supporters will stoop to any level to destroy there political opponents. They have no Honor and bring new meaning to the word megalomania. I also get the impression that some executive branch officials would prefer a one party state. I also believe calling this publication slander would be a grave understatement. In my opinion if we have to ban some one from the region Eluvatar whose pathological behavior patterns that of U.S. President Richard Nixon (1969-1974) would be a prime candidate.
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If you wish to accuse me of abusing my position as MoC please do so and do not be vague about it. I will point out that this information has not been published on TNP-wire nor will it be posted in the upcoming regional update. Had I wanted to I could have openly said all sorts of things in the Regional update. Keep in mind that Roman has refused to comment.

The mudslinging in your post here is much much worse. "Slander" by definition is false. The information here is true so you are either ignorant or misinformed.

This was not encouraged by the delegate. To the contrary I purposefully did not inform Eluvatar about it until the post was in the Co5 forum.

I would address the majority of your comments peoples empire but they are all pretty much the type of mudslinging you're accusing me of.

Mahaj:
Well uh...

that log was long, so if the people who are offended could split out the biggest quotes that I should read and then I'll re-read that and the section around it, that would be wonderful.

Other than that, this looks like a massive attempt to attack Romanoffia and Unibot for their viewpoints, and just their viewpoints alone.

Oh, and shut up Tyler, you're not talking sense at all.
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You have not read the log so therefore the rest of your comments are moot.

punk d:
There are a few things here that I'd like to state, and these are only my opinion. I believe every TNP'er has the right to their opinion and a right to try to convince the rest of us that their opinion should be the guiding principle within TNP. If Roman doesn't want TNP to be associated with 'raider' I believe that he has every right to do so. I believe that if he cannot distinguish between 'ok to raid' and 'raider' that's fine too.
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Uhm... what? You have COMPLETELY missed the point here. Roman and unibot can further the defender agend all they want. They CANNOT do so by lying to the regional assembly which is my point.

punk d:
In my month back in the RA, I'm saddened by the personal attacks, zero sum games, and intolerant attitudes I've seen displayed in some of our discussions. There's no need to kick out raiders or defenders or neutrals. We're not going on a witch hunt to root out every 'undesirable'. I hope the RA rejects Roman's suggestions in the log and chooses the TNP way - democracy.
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Again... you have entirely missed the point. The issue here is that Roman and Unibot ARE NOT being democratic.

I will also note that Romanoffia hasn't commented. There is a reason for that.
 
Punk D was supporting what you were saying, not going against it.

If you read the full logs, this thread makes sense. If you don't this thread makes no sense at all.
 
^This.

Kiwi - my point was they (Roman & Unibot) can have their perspective but I'm sorely disappointed in many of Roman's comments in the logs that look to purge people who don't take his view. So I was, indeed, agreeing with you after reading the logs in full.
 
Addressing Kiwi:

The entire premise of your thread is BS.

Everyone knows my position on unfettered raiding and unfettered defending and no one can question my position on it as I have made it very clear in unmitigated terms.

I also know how the mechanics of the RA works and what will and will not fly.

Where is the deception?

I do not like TNP being used as a base of operations for tormenting defenseless regions for the sake of tormenting defenseless regions. Where is the deception in that statement?

I will fight to prevent The North Pacific from descending into a tool and platform for unfettered raiding or unfettered defending or either in any manner that undermines the prestige, integrity or credibility of this region or its government.

Again, is there anything deceptive in that position?

I will fight in the RA and use any legal means to prevent this region from becoming a haven for anyone who wants to use it as a means to their own end. Is that a deceptive statement?

The North Pacific has been victimized over and over again by raiders, invaders, usurpers, rogues and others who support disorder and chaos in a region that by nature and history promotes self determination of other regions.

You haven't been around long enough to know that I don't mince words, nor do I tolerate obnoxious, unfounded accusations. Your cherry picking of statements and then framing them out of context is reprehensible.

Your statement:

I will also note that Romanoffia hasn't commented. There is a reason for that.
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What an amateurish political ploy. You've got a lot to learn and I will forgive your amateurish and ignorant accusations and ploys on the fact that you haven't been around for very long, and that you don't know me very well. If you knew me, you would know how absurd your assertions are.

The reason for that is that I have very little tolerance for inane prattle from people who have an agenda that is contrary to the principles this region operates upon.

For some odd reason you and a handful of raiders seem to think that I am the only person standing in the way of TNP becoming a raider region. In that assumption, you are wrong, dead wrong. And you are operating on dead theories.

Let me inform you of the fact that I am partially responsible for raiders even being tolerated in TNP. I saw a use for raiders that in theory promoted the well being of this region and given your accusations and ignorance, I now have concluded that I was wrong about the role of raiders in that context.

You, my dear, are the type of raider that turns people off to any tolerance of raiders by your inane, unfounded and totally ignorant misinterpretations of facts, context and what is best for this region.

So, don't attempt to demean me or disparage my reputation in order to better your position with raiders (whom I know are quite critical of your half-hearted raider attitudes). You aren't even a good raider.

So, if your intent was to make a personal enemy out of me, you are on the verge of it, but I won't hold your personal enmity against other raiders with whom I have good personal relations.

So, when I talk with other raiders concerning this matter or any other relevant matter, I will consider you an outsider and wannabe in the raider community who is just looking to better their own failing position amongst raiders and everyone else.

Now, considering your belligerent attitude and idiotic personal attacks against me, you have two choices:

1.) You will withdraw your accusations, you will apologize for them in detail, or;

2.) I will put forth a proposition to work with raiders in TNP only if you apologize in detail for your accusations. Otherwise, I will consider your accusations as reflecting upon the raiders.

Now, the ball is in your court.


And that, my friend, is your daily dose of Realpolitik.
 
Gulliver, it seems that at least two member of the current Co5 haven't apparently figured out that the NPA provisions set out a process by which they or anyone else can seek to establish policies about the NPA in the RA.

I find this constant back-and-forth between the two of them without something concrete for the R.A. to consider in deployment policies, now that we have a process by which we can decide what is or is not appropriate, is next to useless.

Seriously, next to useless. I'm not sure there's any benefit to consider any of it except as fodder for the next Co5 election.
 
Punk d:
^This.

Kiwi - my point was they (Roman & Unibot) can have their perspective but I'm sorely disappointed in many of Roman's comments in the logs that look to purge people who don't take his view. So I was, indeed, agreeing with you after reading the logs in full.
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My apologies. You do seem to have grasped the point. I'm just defensive after having to defend myself when really all I legitimately have are the region's interests at heart.

As for you Romanoffia:

I don't really see why I should state this again but let me do so with text that is both bold and underlined so you know the issue you need to address.

I will push for it as a result of this poll and write up legislation accordingly even though I despise it.
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Remember, I can refuse to actually write the legislation and it dies there but...
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You lied to the Regional Assembly about your intention to draft the relevant legislation.

Your MOTIVE was to further the defender agenda but your motive is not relevant! You deception is.

I do not care what your stated intention is after the fact or what you try to say to cover up your lie. It may only be a small lie with no large impact but it reflects an opinion of the RA. And you are not sorry for lying.

I don't care how long you have been in the region, that does not give you the right to lie to the RA.

I notice no where in your post do you deny that you have lied. As for them being unfounded. Please refer to the original quote. To the contrary they are perfectly founded.

For someone who supposedly doesn't put up with people who have outside interests, you seem to "put up" with Unibot just fine.

You expect me to learn about you when you know absolutely nothing about me. In fact, you can't even accurately reflect if I am raider, defender or neutral. You assume because I disagree with you that I'm a raider.

The rest of your points are not worth addressing and are slanderous personal attacks whereas mine are addressing a public wrong you have committed.

Do as you wish but do not think that I will stand by and let you lie to the Regional Assembly.

Gulliver:
Is KiwiTaicho even a raider?
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Thank you, Gulliver. I will note that I have never committed a single raid.

Grosse: The problem is that the Regional Assembly is divided and cannot agree on a mandate. It's better to have a framework then nothing. At present McMasterdonia can make no decisions because he's horrified he's going to upset someone.
 
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