20:58*** Blue_Wolf joined #tnp-cabinet
20:58SecretaryO_O
20:58+++ Eluvatar has given voice to Romanoffia
20:58+++ Eluvatar has given voice to Scandigrad
20:58+++ Eluvatar has given voice to Unibot
20:58+++ Eluvatar has given voice to KiwiTaicho|Away
20:58+++ Eluvatar has given voice to mcmasterdonia|work
20:58UnibotEluvatar, I don't think this is going to be a productive meeting if we have Blue Wolf here.
20:59UnibotIt sort of defeats the purpose of trying to get the cabinet together to reach a consensus.
20:59EluvatarThanks for the helpful advice.
20:59UnibotWe might as well have an open public debate and watch us go in circles.
20:59SecretaryI am tired of calling KiwiTaicho|away
20:59EluvatarThen stop, Secretary
20:59UnibotEluvatar, that wasn't advice.
20:59EluvatarIf need be moderation mode will be set.
21:00UnibotI don't feel the need to attend another public hearing on the matter.
21:00EluvatarRight now I intend to discuss the matters of getting the new COuncil up and running.
21:00UnibotWe had tons of those.
21:00UnibotI was asking for a council meeting.
21:00UnibotNot a public hearing.
21:00UnibotWe were all looking for a council meeting.
21:00EluvatarThe item you mean is on the agenda
21:00Eluvatarfor later in the meeting.
21:00*** KiwiTaicho|Other joined #tnp-cabinet
21:00EluvatarAt which time it will be appropriate to consider whether to go to closed session
21:00+++ Eluvatar has given voice to KiwiTaicho|Other
21:00+++ Eluvatar has taken voice from KiwiTaicho|Away
21:00Blue_WolfI intend to remain observent, unless Unibot doesn't like me watching
21:01EluvatarLet us begin with the first business of the new Council.
21:01EluvatarResponsibilities.
21:01UnibotBlue Wolf I'm sure you have people to leak you information anyway.
21:01EluvatarUnibot: please drop it.
21:01EluvatarWho wants the responsibility of Minister of Communications?
21:01UnibotExcuse me, Eluvatar, but there was a breach of information and you did nothing about it.
21:02KiwiTaicho|OtherLol I love how I get here exactly on time
21:02KiwiTaicho|Otheroh yeahhhh
21:02EluvatarKiwiTaicho|Other: Winsor confused the time
21:02Secretary
21:02KiwiTaicho|OtherHaha oh right. Sorry :|
21:02Eluvatarand Unibot, Romanoffia, and Scandigrad acting for mcmaster have been chattering away for an hour
21:02EluvatarI just got here
21:02EluvatarYou and I are on time KiwiTaicho|Other
21:02Eluvatarlol
21:02KiwiTaicho|OtherAh okay then
21:02RomanoffiaOh, you silly people. ;D
21:02EluvatarThey're all early
21:02Secretaryi hate myself now
21:02ScandigradFor the record, we accomplished nothing.
21:02KiwiTaicho|Other
21:02EluvatarYeah I saw.
21:03Blue_WolfHail progress
21:03KiwiTaicho|OtherSo how do people feel about their respective Ministries? I mentioned this on the forum.
21:03EluvatarLet us get to business.
21:03RomanoffiaAccomplishing nothing usually means doing no damage.
21:03Eluvatar22:01 <@Eluvatar> Who wants the responsibility of Minister of Communications?
21:03RomanoffiaI nominate Kiwi.
21:03UnibotI second that.
21:03KiwiTaicho|OtherWell obviously I'll take it everyone wants to keep their current post.
21:03EluvatarI suppose the other ministers intend to keep their posts.
21:03Secretaryyay
21:03RomanoffiaOf course.
21:03KiwiTaicho|OtherSo it would seem.
21:03EluvatarKiwiTaicho|Other: are you interested in the Communications Ministry?
21:04UnibotIndeed.
21:04ScandigradI love my post.
21:04Eluvatar
21:04KiwiTaicho|OtherEluvatar: This is acceptable.
21:04Eluvatar.weight_one Eluvatar Unibot Scandigrad KiwiTaicho|Other Romanoffia
21:04Eluvatar.chair Eluvatar
21:04FriarTuckEluvatar: Done.
21:04EluvatarLet us briefly vote on appointing KiwiTaicho|Other MoC
21:04Eluvatar.open_vote
21:04FriarTuckEluvatar: Vote opened!
21:04Eluvatar.vote Aye
21:04FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 1
21:04Unibot.vote Aye
21:04Scandigrad.vote aye
21:04FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 2
21:04FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 3
21:05KiwiTaicho|Other.vote aye
21:05FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 4
21:05Eluvatar.in 30 seconds stop waiting for Romanoffia
21:05FriarTuckEluvatar: Okay, will remind in 30 secs
21:05RomanoffiaAye.
21:05EluvatarIt's .vote aye >_>
21:05Eluvatar
21:05FriarTuckEluvatar: stop waiting for Romanoffia
21:05EluvatarAh well
21:05Eluvatar.close_vote
21:05FriarTuckEluvatar: Closing the vote.
21:05FriarTuckAye:4
21:06RomanoffiaI voted Aye.
21:06FriarTuckAye got the most votes with 4 out of 4 (0 abstentions)
21:06FriarTuckAye got a majority of the votes
21:06Secretarylol
21:06KiwiTaicho|OtherErm so I gather Scandigrad is acting for mcmasterdonia|work? xD
21:06EluvatarYes.
21:06KiwiTaicho|OtherOkie dokie.
21:06Eluvatarmcmasterdonia so designated shortly before the official meeting.
21:06Scandigradsi
21:06KiwiTaicho|OtherRighteo.
21:06EluvatarNow, during that hour, the three of them started arguing for longer Councillor terms.
21:07EluvatarI am firmly against making them a full four months, that's for sure.
21:07EluvatarI will note that I'm under no obligation to call an election immediately upon the 25 days.
21:07Secretaryyes
21:07KiwiTaicho|OtherHmm but you have to admit that was a pretty short term.
21:07EluvatarAlso that the term is 35 days, not 25
21:07RomanoffiaComment? May I?
21:07EluvatarYes please.
21:07RomanoffiaThe way I see it...
21:07UnibotEluvatar, why should we serve short terms, but you serve a long term?
21:07UnibotWere we not elected too?
21:08UnibotAnd expected to remain active, the same?
21:08EluvatarTechnically I am facing the same frequent elections Unibot
21:08RomanoffiaThe Cabinet is largely a 'serve at the Delegate's pleasure' situation and,
21:08KiwiTaicho|Otherindeed
21:08UnibotNot for delegate, Eluvtar.
21:08Romanoffiathat if the Delegate is not satisfied with the cabinet...
21:08ScandigradIs a Congressman not elected? They serve much shorter terms than senators.
21:08EluvatarHalf as short as the President, indeed.
21:08UnibotYears for god's sake.
21:08RomanoffiaThen the Delegate can call for an election for the cabinet as a whole as per the directive.
21:08EluvatarThree times as short as Senator.
21:08UnibotI am not an American.
21:08EluvatarUnibot: I want TNP to be fast paced like the NationStates of 2003-2004
21:09Eluvatarnot at the snails pace of 2009-2011
21:09Eluvataror even 2006-2011
21:09UnibotAnd this is accomplished by derailing our activities.
21:09UnibotWith constant elections.
21:09EluvatarWe'd have had a meeting last week if I wasn't overwhelmed outside NS.
21:09EluvatarAnd Ator, actually.
21:10EluvatarFive weeks is a long, long time.
21:10UnibotWe were just getting in the swing of things.
21:10UnibotAnd these elections interrupted us.
21:10UnibotFive weeks is a ridiculously small term.
21:10EluvatarFour months is ridiculously long.
21:11UnibotThen I guess we should recall you now then.
21:11EluvatarAnd I do not agree that five weeks is ridiculously short, by any means.
21:11EluvatarGo ahead and try.
21:11UnibotWouldn't want you to serve as delegate too long.
21:11RomanoffiaTrue, but in some instances disrupting things can result in chaos if the timing is wrong.
21:11KiwiTaicho|Othermm and what do you think Scandigrad?
21:11RomanoffiaNot that I don't thrive on chaos.
21:11EluvatarI do not think this election introduced chaos. Quite the contrary.
21:11UnibotI don't think it's so much chaos as not doing anything.
21:11ScandigradI think this is hilarious.
21:11UnibotThanks to us all being busy getting re-elected.
21:12EluvatarThere was nothing keeping the ministers from their posts in my view.
21:12UnibotExcept having to get re-elected.
21:12EluvatarThere were 3 days of prep and then 7 days of sitting and sniping
21:12RomanoffiaActually, the elections did pretty much what a normal continuation of the previous cabinet would have produced.
21:12EluvatarI would hope that the sniping didn't take much of your time.
21:12UnibotBecause some of us aren't a safe-seat as the incumbent delegate is.
21:12EluvatarAnd it stands to reason in my view that the best way to campaign as an incumbnet is to excel at one's duties.
21:13UnibotOr run on name recogonition.
21:13UnibotAnd hope the election distracts your political enemies from fufilling their duties.
21:13KiwiTaicho|OtherI'm curious - since the council of five is a directive does that mean that as soon as we have someone who isn't elu, is there going to be no council of five?
21:13Scandigrad^I was just thinking that.
21:14RomanoffiaGiven that there are required ministries...
21:14RomanoffiaSuch a council/cabinet would continue to exist even if by another name.
21:14EluvatarIt's entirely possible for the council to be granted legislated existence at some point during the next ten weeks.
21:15RomanoffiaThat's if the RA can be awaken.
21:15Romanoffiaed.
21:15KiwiTaicho|Other
21:15EluvatarI don't think it can be called asleep at this time.
21:15EluvatarBut that's neither here nor there.
21:15RomanoffiaI was just kidding. ;D
21:15UnibotWell, Scand, Roman and I were in support of longer terms, Eluvatar.
21:15KiwiTaicho|OtherSo - what about a compromise between 5 weeks and 4 months?
21:16RomanoffiaI like the idea of longer terms personally.
21:16KiwiTaicho|OtherAs do I. Even if only slightly longer.
21:16EluvatarSo, I'd certainly be open to an informal compromise.
21:16ScandigradTwo months.
21:16UnibotLike, you agree to agree with us until you call the election in five weeks anyway?
21:17UnibotWhat do you mean by informal?
21:17EluvatarIt'd be 3 weeks and change actually.
21:17RomanoffiaI say, since the cabinet is largely a serve-at-will determined by the Delegate, why not allow the delegate to call an election if the cabinet isn't working?
21:17UnibotOh fantastic.
21:17KiwiTaicho|OtherWell that's fine... but it would be nice to have a default term that's a bit longer at any rate.
21:18UnibotThree weeks is not enough to do anything with the pace of the RA and the justices.
21:18EluvatarWhat kind of "anything" are you talking about?
21:18ScandigradI'd say we've been rather successful.
21:18KiwiTaicho|OtherAnd on a side note - isn't the whole purpose of this council that we have an equal say? If the delegate can just override everything and dismiss us at will - why did elu need to be nominated for the council to begin with? :|
21:18EluvatarA four month term is generally 120 days + change
21:18UnibotUm, building a policy or proposal on anything and submitting it and getting it passed.
21:19EluvatarKiwiTaicho|Other: I have not overriden or dismissed
21:19EluvatarIf you guys vote to change the directive, the directive will be changed.
21:19UnibotI believe you have.
21:19EluvatarI am arguing.
21:19EluvatarDebating, even.
21:19UnibotWell I see no reason for an informal compromise when we can have a formal one.
21:19EluvatarI have no veto power in the Council.
21:19EluvatarI think that Romanoffia agrees with the notion that the Delegate should be able to call early elections.
21:20UnibotI think you're handicapping the government from actually being able to compromise the objectives of a given term by pushing us into elections every month.
21:20Unibot*complete the objectives
21:20RomanoffiaThere are a number of good arguments on all sides here...
21:20EluvatarI think that Romanoffia agrees with the notion that the Delegate should be able to call early elections if desired.
21:20UnibotOur long-term objectives for last term were not fulfilled.
21:20EluvatarBut I'm interested in the notion of a longer normal term.
21:20EluvatarI want a good pace here.
21:20UnibotAnd I want a pace that gets things done, Eluvatar.
21:21KiwiTaicho|OtherTwo months would restrict that?
21:21RomanoffiaShort terms can lead to chaos or machine functioning of ministries that leaves little or no consistent policies.
21:21ScandigradSo do a good job and get reelected.
21:21EluvatarApproximately two months can work.
21:21UnibotEvery month?
21:21UnibotAlright.
21:21EluvatarIt's not quite every month.
21:21KiwiTaicho|OtherCan I propose a vote on a 4 month term then?
21:21UnibotSure
21:22EluvatarBy that do you meant that the Delegate could *not* call an election for 4 months, unless there was a vacancy?
21:22RomanoffiaMainly, a cabinet is there to support/advise the Delegate and make decisions, and if the directive were applied so that the Delegate can call a general election to replace a cabinet in which he has no confidence, then the frequency of elections reflects politically on the Delegate for better or worse.
21:22KiwiTaicho|OtherThat's what I was thinking but we can debate the exact nature first if you want. I don't know how I feel about the delegate being able to call an election at any time though.
21:23UnibotKiwi, were you thinking of starting at 4 months and voting each week down until we got to a term a majority liked?
21:23RomanoffiaTrue.
21:23KiwiTaicho|OtherUnibot: No I was thinking compulsory 4 month term. Period. No overriding by the delegate.
21:23KiwiTaicho|Othererr
21:23KiwiTaicho|Other2 months xD
21:24KiwiTaicho|Othernot 4 >_>
21:24EluvatarAhah.
21:24UnibotOh okay
21:24UnibotI believe 2 months sounds good to me.
21:24EluvatarIt was pretty much my original plan.
21:24EluvatarBut I figured that 2 councils for 1 term was kind of boring
21:24RomanoffiaTwo months as a general term of service sounds good to me.
21:25KiwiTaicho|Other
21:25RomanoffiaIt gives enough time to get everything in order.
21:25KiwiTaicho|OtherIndeed.
21:25UnibotDo bear in mind, Elu that some ministies to get things done like external affairs naturally move slower.
21:25RomanoffiaTrue.
21:26UnibotIt's hard to have a success during a term as minister of external affairs when foreign affairs as a sector in NS moves.. sllowly.
21:26UnibotYou can wait for a week to get an application recived for an embassy.
21:26KiwiTaicho|OtherIndeed but I think two months is a good compromise for now. The next council can re-evaluate next term if need be. We can be the guinea pigs
21:26RomanoffiaAnd slow is good when it supports stability and consistency.
21:26EluvatarIt was my expectation that people would generally run for reelection
21:26Eluvatar shrugs
21:27EluvatarIt was an experiment and the people it elected don't like it.
21:27EluvatarNow, for the present term.
21:27KiwiTaicho|Other
21:27UnibotI don't think it gave us time to finish the long-term objectives of the term
21:27RomanoffiaYes, but short terms means that more effort is expended upon getting reelected than running a given ministry.
21:27EluvatarIf we were to cancel the otherwise planned election in August,
21:27Eluvatarthen this term would turn into 15 weeks
21:27Eluvatar*10
21:27EluvatarTen weeks.
21:27EluvatarSlightly more actually, I think.
21:28ScandigradI don't see why anyone would object to a longer term... just sayin'
21:28Eluvatarno, 9, I'm wrong.
21:28ScandigradOr why anyone would object to a payraise.
21:28EluvatarYeah there's something here I find iffy.
21:28EluvatarBut presumably the RA will legislate it after this term such that it won't be self-adjustable XD
21:29EluvatarOr we'll end up with a Long Council eventually a la the Long Parliament
21:29UnibotErm
21:29RomanoffiaHeh - interesting RL historical reference.
21:29UnibotThe delegate would lose his re-election
21:29EluvatarIf?
21:29UnibotIf he allowed that.
21:29KiwiTaicho|OtherI think that we can allow the RA to discuss the length of our term when we look at proper legislation for the council of five.
21:30EluvatarBut in the mean time.
21:30KiwiTaicho|OtherIn the interim - two months is a fair compromise.
21:30EluvatarGiven that there are 9 weeks left in my term..
21:30RomanoffiaIn the mean time - I say we go with a two month experimental term.
21:30Eluvatar shrugs
21:30KiwiTaicho|OtherThat makes it simple Eluvatar, propose legislation well before the end of your term.
21:30ScandigradHow long are we going to talk about nothing for?
21:30EluvatarSeptember 9th is kind of an awkward time to start the next Co5 election
21:31Secretarywhy?
21:31EluvatarBut fine I'll forgo the August election unless there's an outcry
21:31EluvatarBecause it's in the middle of Delegate elections, Windsor
21:31ScandigradNo one will notice.
21:31EluvatarSeptember 1st-17th.
21:31RomanoffiaJust have the Co5 serve until an incoming delegate holds an election.
21:31Secretaryagree
21:31UnibotOr chooses a different system for executives.
21:32RomanoffiaIOW, a concurrent term unless the Delegate feels that the cabinet is ineffective.
21:32KiwiTaicho|OtherOr we get legislation through the RA on the council of five
21:32EluvatarI'd really much rather a 2 month term than a 4 month term for ministers.
21:32UnibotDo we want to force delegates to adopt the Co5 method?
21:32EluvatarLet's move on from this subject.
21:32ScandigradConcur
21:32RomanoffiaI agree.
21:32EluvatarThat's the RA's call, not ours.
21:32KiwiTaicho|OtherFor the moment, indeed.
21:32KiwiTaicho|OtherEluvatar: Quite right.
21:32EluvatarThe next item is the NPA.
21:33EluvatarFirst question.
21:33EluvatarDo we wish to discuss the NPA in closed session?
21:33Eluvatar.open_vote
21:33FriarTuckEluvatar: Vote opened!
21:33Eluvatar.vote Abstain
21:33FriarTuck1 votes added to Abstain bringing it to 1
21:33Unibot.vote aye
21:33FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 1
21:33Scandigrad.vote nay
21:33FriarTuck1 votes added to Nay bringing it to 1
21:33EluvatarI retain the right to change my vote.
21:33RomanoffiaAye.
21:33KiwiTaicho|Otherhmmm
21:33EluvatarRomanoffia: please use the .vote command
21:33Unibot".vote aye"
21:33Romanoffia.vote aye
21:33FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 2
21:33Eluvatardanke
21:33Eluvatar thinks.
21:34KiwiTaicho|Other.vote aye
21:34FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 3
21:34Eluvatar.vote aye
21:34FriarTuck1 votes removed from Abstain leaving it at 0
21:34FriarTuck1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 4
21:34Eluvatar.in 20 seconds end
21:34FriarTuckEluvatar: Okay, will remind in 20 secs
21:34Secretary
21:34Eluvatar.close_vote
21:34FriarTuckEluvatar: Closing the vote.
21:34FriarTuckAye:4;Nay:1
21:34FriarTuckAye got the most votes with 4 out of 5 (0 abstentions)
21:34FriarTuckAye got a majority of the votes
21:34FriarTuckEluvatar: end
21:34ScandigradPerhaps we should consider muting the channel, so others may not comment, but may still watch.
21:34EluvatarI would like to ask the observers to please depart for this closed session.
21:35EluvatarWe may end the closed session at any time.
21:35KiwiTaicho|OtherScandigrad: that wouldn't be a closed session
21:35UnibotScandigrad that would defeat the purpose of a closed session.
21:35ScandigradBut it is the main grounds for closing the session.
21:35KiwiTaicho|OtherI will preface my vote - with the fact that many people in here that would have to leave have expressed their vote in the forum topic
21:35ScandigradThere are people here ya'll don't want to talk.
21:35*** Secretary left #tnp-cabinet
21:35ScandigradAnd the simple solution is to mute them.
21:35KiwiTaicho|Othererr their *view
21:36UnibotI agree with Kiwi, I think BWII and Gov have made their positions very clear.
21:36ScandigradThey can still watch, but not talk.
21:36RomanoffiaI move that we hold a closed session concerning the NPA issue as it relates to regional security issues.
21:36UnibotAnd BWII and Gov are just here to grab quotes.
21:36EluvatarWhich isn't bad per se.
21:36ScandigradThey will get them anyway, since we post our minutes now remember?
21:36EluvatarWe don't post minutes of closed sessions.
21:36KiwiTaicho|OtherIndeed.
21:36+++ Eluvatar set the channel to mode +i
21:36ScandigradThey should know what we are up to, since it directly affects them, being members of the NPA.
21:36Eluvatar.in 10 seconds kicking time
21:36RomanoffiaEspecially when security issues are discussed.
21:36FriarTuckEluvatar: Okay, will remind in 10 secs
21:37UnibotEluvatar, out of context quotations are bad.
21:37FriarTuckEluvatar: kicking time
21:37EluvatarI understand the argument Scandigrad but the council has chosen otherwise
21:37ScandigradThey are NPA soldiers.
21:37ScandigradThere is no "Security issue"
21:37*** Blue_Wolf was kicked by Eluvatar (Govindia )
21:37!!! You have been kicked from #tnp-cabinet
