Total Overhaul of Everything

OK, I see the total lack of meaningful activity in the region. It's a state of apathy and lethargy of epic proportions. It's time to wake the region up.

This requires that the root causes of the problems involved be identified before a solution can be arrived at (and those problems are fairly obvious).

1.) The North Pacific is dying of boredom.

Did I really need to say that?

2.) The Constitution as it stands has resulted in a convoluted and downright Byzantine governmental structure that has resulted in a failed government.

There are too many chiefs and not enough Indians to put in quite blunt terms. All we need is a Minister of Silly Walks and A Minister of Ministers to The Minister of Silly Walks to make it complete. The Courts are in a shambles and the Speaker of the RA is AWOL (see: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6889915/1/.

Flem has a very valid point with his sardonic 'Constitution'. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when the forum Admin can't even get a rise out of anyone.

The courts are so constipated that an enemy from a volcano couldn't get it moving.

3.) The utter lack of any meaningful activity only feeds the constipation and will eventually result in the region imploding out of boredom.

This anal-retentive adherence to a Constitution which requires a level of activity from the citizens that apparently cannot be maintained means that the Constitution has failed to meet the needs of this region.

A people who refuse to govern themselves are only inviting someone to come along and tell them how they will be governed. And why not? They refuse to govern themselves and if they continue to do so, they will indeed be governed and end up as subjects instead of citizens. Right now, the citizens of TNP are subjects of their own boredom and yet they don't do anything about it, mainly because they can't make a difference and have nothing to get them motivated.

4.) Given our Constitution and the regulatory and statutory quagmire it imposes, I seriously doubt that TNP could fend off an invasion or a revolution.

The point of this is that someone, anyone, with sufficient influence could come along and simply exploit the Constitution and Laws and seize control of the region and the Delegate, without violating the Constitution, couldn't even legally respond to defend the region. We've seen this before any number of times. The region goes to sleep, and all Hell breaks loose. But maybe that's what the region needs, yet again, to wake it up.

Here is what I propose:

A Call for a Provisional Government:

Given the lack of activity in The North Pacific, the lack of participation from the general citizenry and the inability of the Government of The North Pacific to take specific and meaningful action to improve participation in government to the point that the government can actually function in a meaningful and timely fashion, let it be known that a Provisional Government is hereby Declared.

Government Structure:

Article I

1. All Executive Authority shall be invested in the duly elected Delegate of The North Pacific at the time of the ratification of this Provisional Constitution. The Delegate shall have the authority to establish a hierarchy of nations with sufficient regional influence to maintain the security of the region. The Delegate shall have the authority to expel, at will, any nation that exceeds 75% of the Delegate's endorsement count and do so with impunity and at will. The current duly elected Delegate shall preside until citizen activity levels shall be achieved so as to restore the extant Constitution or until a new Constitution be constructed and approved by the RA.

Article II

All Legislative and Judicial Authority shall be vested in the Regional Assembly. The Regional Assembly shall have the authority to create it's own rules of procedure.

The Regional Assembly shall consist of all nations who seek to participate and who have had at least 30 days residency in The North Pacific and have registered on the Regional Forum and have been accepted under these requirements. Regional Assembly members must have a World Assembly nation and at least 20 endorsements. RA Members shall be approved within 24 hours of their application on an up or down vote by the RA. Should the RA not do so within 24 hours, the applicant will automatically be declared a Citizen and masked as such on the forum immediately.

Article III

1. All civil liberties under the extant Constitution shall be preserved in the interim as long. Citizens who refuse to participate in government abjure and vacate those rights and are subject to the will of the Delegate upon approval of a simple majority of the RA and provided the Delegate does not veto the RA.

2. Voting by the RA will be conducted withing a 24 hour period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill. Quorums are eliminated.

3. A veto by the Delegate is nullified by a simple 2/3rds +1 majority vote by all participating RA members in the 24 hour voting period.

4. Those who refuse or neglect to participate in their own governance shall do so at their own peril and be subject to the will of the Delegate and RA should said nation not be active on the forum for more than seven consecutive 24 hour periods.

Article IV

At such time that the original Constitution is capable of being properly serviced and supported by the participation of enough citizens to fill all available position, it shall be restored with no delay. Should a restored Constitution fail to function by lack of participation, this Provisional Constitution shall resume without delay.

1. If the Citizens of The North Pacific refuse to participate and govern themselves, they will be subject to being governed by those who actually give a damn, and at which point, they have no reason to complain and no recourse to Constitution or Law.

We tried to fix this place recently. What was achieved? Nothing, though I might have achieved an ulcer had I kept at it.

EDIT: I'm all for change in TNP. If you think you can do it, God bless your brave soul. However, I don't expect much to change around here very quickly.

yeah let's all talk about change and blah ,blah and then disappear and come after six months,,

i do not see how giving Blue Wolf an unlimited term and unlimited authority is a recipe for activity.

I agree

flemingovia:

i do not see how giving Blue Wolf an unlimited term and unlimited authority is a recipe for activity.

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Because such a prospect requires people to get off their arses and do something for a change?

The problem is that if there isn't conflict, there is apathy. C'mon, Flem, you've been around for a long time here and you know the history of this region. If people don't have something to fight for or against, apathy sets in and someone comes along and goes rogue.

We don't have any strong forces in this region or in NationStates in general. Take a look at one of the most influential regions like Gatesville. It now consists of exactly three nations. Pfffft. Gone. Why? Apathy. And that's what's happening to this region except it will be anarchy and a very dull species of anarchy at that. The only thing that keeps this region alive, and barely at that, is that it is a feeder.

Point being is that Pasargad is acting in his constitutional capacity as Vice Delegate. That is a start. Now, we only need to work to get people involved and motivate them to do so or you will end up with an apathetic region that does nothing but sit around and occupy space to promote the general boredom.

What we need is something arbitrary and capricious (or at least potentially so) to get people interested to the point that they feel the need to participate.

Frankly, your 'Constitution' is a crazy enough idea to upset the apple cart and get people's attention.

Actually Gatesville is gone because Gates went batshit insane, reclaimed the founder nation, and banned everyone in a selfish fit. Up until that point, people were expressing a great deal of interest in the region once again; they were actually making a comeback and had managed to increase their size from 300 nations to 600 nations over the period of a few short months, if I recall correctly.

Just saying

I do not think Gates went batshit insane. He was never particularly stable to begin with.

There are two North Pacifics, one is here on the forums the other one in the game.

The in game mechanics is simple but our forum things is quite complex for a standard gamer. The key word is simplicity, we say change, but this change has to be in a way to simplicity.

I don't think we need that much legislations, security issues, endorsement caps, activity checks, councils, ministers. speakers, justices blah. blah..What we need is a much more common ground, simple enough for a standard player can easily participate.

I entirely agree with you. I invite you to take a look at the Flemingovian constitution, which is a model of simplicity and allows supurb scope for roleplay and character development.

It's a start, I'll give you that.

First impressions though, I'd think new Delegate elections as part of the overhaul would be more constructive and make more sense?

flemingovia:

I do not think Gates went batshit insane. He was never particularly stable to begin with.

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That must explain how I convinced him to get out of TNP that last go-around.

I wouldn't go as far as a new Delegate Election considering BW has shown interest in what is going on and is up and running again.

What we need is a major campaign to get people involved and keep them interested and keep them involved. We can do this. We can build a fire under the collective arse of TNP.

I believe we can get enough activity and participation to get all government positions filled and operating.

By the same token, I do think the structure of the government and the constitution in general needs to be rearranged a bit to preclude the inactivity issue. But if we can instill some more participation, we can not worry about any changes to the Constitution.

Hey, I've just been accused of 'openly supporting a coup' for starting this thread.

What's wrong with this: Being accused of what is tantamount to treason for proposing the discussion of an article of legislation?

A perfect example of what has gone wrong in this region.

And a perfect point to start a discussion on how to fix it all.

There are a few problems I see with this proposal. One is the voting periods that you have laid out. 24 hours isn't a very long time and will eliminate those voters who may not check the forums every single day.

The next is the WA requirement for RA members as well as the 30 day residency requirement. If you want people to participate in the government then don't apply harsh restrictions like you have proposed here. You also don't need a vote of the RA to accept or deny members as that requirement will kill even more membership into the RA.

I participate in almost all of the feeders and every sinker as well as a few UCR regions. I enjoy being involved in different governments and would be very disappointed if such a resolution would be enforced here in TNP.

As for the accusation of a coup, you will have that. There are people who won't want any kind of major changes and will oppose them in any way they can come up with.

Idiot. You weren't accused of supporting a coup for opening this thread. But say it another 50 times in every topic in the forum if it makes you feel good. Won't make it any more true. I support people coming up with new ideas to shake this place up. I just sort of lean towards good ideas that have a snowball's chance in hell of actually improving things.

Blackshear:

Idiot. You weren't accused of supporting a coup for opening this thread. But say it another 50 times in every topic in the forum if it makes you feel good. Won't make it any more true. I support people coming up with new ideas to shake this place up. I just sort of lean towards good ideas that have a snowball's chance in hell of actually improving things.

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You specifically mention this thread in the Security Council Application thread.

And frankly, this is a second accusation you make that supports my claim about the first accusation you made.

Again, you fail to see or understand anything I've said and the purpose of what I said.

I'll tell you how I see it.

We essentially have government by a select group of about 4 or 5 officials of the government as a result of not enough activity by the citizens of this region. It's the same old story - a handful of people that appear to want not much more than the power to do so. And this turns off people who might otherwise wish to participate but feel that participation is meaningless.

You accused me of "openly supporting a coup". I suspect that a coup has already occurred and it is a coup of apathy on the part of the citizens of this region on one end and a coup of elitism on the other end.

Some of you clearly do not like the elected Delegate. Instead of accusing people of 'openly supporting a coup' for saying that the Constitution should be enforced, why don't you use the Constitution and the mechanisms it provides to change that if you wish instead of doing nothing to enforce the will of the citizens who voted for said Delegate? Has the elected Delegate committed some kind of crime in your eyes?

If you suspect that the elected Delegate has no interest in actually attaining the endorsements to be Delegate, then ask for a resignation of the Delegate Elect. It's that simple. If the Delegate Elect resigns, then that's that. If the Delegate Elect wishes to fulfill the duties of the position, then you are obligated under the Constitution and Law to do what is required to assure that individual the means to perform those duties.

If you don't like the Delegate that won the election, then you are also entitled to use the Constitution and Law to change that if you can. Let me remind you, this region is supposed to be a Democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of thought, not an Oligarchy where any new ideas are immediately suppressed as being an attempted coup.

Given your attitude, Blackshear, I suspect the ghost of FrancoSpain is smiling somewhere.

Just got around to reading this, but the first thing that strike me as odd is the fact that the Delegate will have unlimited term in this document until "At such time that the original Constitution is capable of being properly serviced and supported by the participation of enough citizens to fill all available position, it shall be restored with no delay." which is impossible to be determined because each people have different standard.

Technically, we only needs 7 persons for all elected position to be filled and it is confusing at best to determine whether a document is "properly serviced and supported by the participation of enough citizens"

It's a good basis for a future draft for a shorter constitution though. I enjoy it's simplicity.

Romanoffia:

I wouldn't go as far as a new Delegate Election considering BW has shown interest in what is going on and is up and running again.

What we need is a major campaign to get people involved and keep them interested and keep them involved. We can do this. We can build a fire under the collective arse of TNP.

I believe we can get enough activity and participation to get all government positions filled and operating.

By the same token, I do think the structure of the government and the constitution in general needs to be rearranged a bit to preclude the inactivity issue. But if we can instill some more participation, we can not worry about any changes to the Constitution.

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Well, I voted for BW as it is, so I'm happy with him as Delegate.

My point was rather more because I think that, with a few amendments (some of which Hileville has mentioned), I believe we'd be better off adopting something similar to this as our governing document full stop, rather than just as a short term measure.

From the status of the discussion, it's clear that this isn't ready for formal discussion, I'm not sure I can piece out what the actual proposal is. Will continue to monitor.

I think that if we can boost activity and participation in the next couple of weeks and if the government can become active all the way around, then it makes it easier and lest pressing time-wise to decide where the Constitution can be modified to prevent this sort of stagnation from happening again.

@ Gross - my purpose in posting this discussion was precisely to stir up some activity and participattion which it seems to have accomplished. ;D

Blackshear:

Idiot. You weren't accused of supporting a coup for opening this thread. But say it another 50 times in every topic in the forum if it makes you feel good. Won't make it any more true. I support people coming up with new ideas to shake this place up. I just sort of lean towards good ideas that have a snowball's chance in hell of actually improving things.

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Thank you for your support for the Fleminovian Constitution.

I'm still not sure what the actual proposal is (in appropriate language for an enactment) or if this is just a discussion of ideas.

It's a simple discussion of ideas. Any idea. Anything to get something happening around here other than stagnation or other useless garbage.

The current government is in a state to total anarchy with the SC acting as sole arbiter and silencer of any discussion of or attempt towards change.

The current Constitution has utterly failed. The Judicial system is suffering from complete disarray and cannot even conduct a simple trial or process a legitimate complaint.

All these often whacky suggestions for new Constitutions are largely made with the attempt to start a dialogue concerning what needs to be done (and is long overdue). Instead of inducing serious discussion it prompts the SC to declare me a ''threat to the region" for simply using hyperbole to incite activity and a discussion about change.

That action alone on the part of the SC shows that we need to completely alter the existing Constitution before we descend into a totalitarian state where a limited few can crucify anyone that doesn't go along with them.

The biggest threat to this region is the current condition of this government. It is anarchy, oligarchy and elitism and is certainly no longer a functioning Democracy. It stifles activity and persecutes it.

The majority of people want activity, now they're getting it and a certain elite group wants to strangle it like a helpless infant all in the name of maintaining the status quo of an elite which I observe is acting as though it is a shadow government.

Discussion of these topics and calling problems to the attention of all is the health of a living democracy. Attempting to silence it is a tyranny. From what I have witnessed, people are downright afraid to criticize the status quo because they will get the full wrath of the SC and Vice Delegate like I am experiencing now. Having been here in this region since the beginning in one nation or another, I can see history repeating itself and it isn't pretty. We'd better fix things now before we end up with a real mess like we've never seen before.

It's not necessarily time to move the forum, but rearrange it, but first we need to create a new, simplified Constitution and an even simpler government.

A Delegate who is Head of Government, state and acting as a Chief Executive.

A Legislative Branch with simple rules.

A Judicial Branch with two or three judges and an AG with a simplified procedure and a guarantee of timely action.

If this is just a general discussion, then the appropriate place for it is the Main Entry area, and that would allow those with Registered Citizen and TNP citizen masks to participate.

If there's no objection by late tonight my time, I'll move the thread there.

Thread moved.

Unfortunately I can't create a new thread for this at the moment, but as things have stalled around here I'd like to take a second look at the Constitution proposed here by Roman. I've amended it slightly to be a little more robust, it now just slightly goes over one side of A4. Anyway, this was a pretty quick attempt to put something together:


Provisional Constitution

Article I- The Executive

All Executive Authority shall be vested in the Delegate of The North Pacific.

1.The Delegate shall have the authority to expel, at will, any nation that exceeds 66% of the Delegate's endorsement count and do so with impunity and at will.
2.The Delegate will be elected from the members of the Regional Assembly after the adoption of this constitution and shall serve until a new Constitution is adopted by the Regional Assembly or for a term not exceeding 12 months.
3.The Delegate may veto bills passed through the Assembly that do not attain at least 60% supermajority in favor.
4.The Delegate shall appoint a cabinet of executive officers to co-ordinate policy. These shall include, but are not limited to, officers to oversee foreign affairs, regional defence and internal affairs.
5.There shall also be an elected Vice Delegate who shall maintain the second highest endorsement count in the region.
6.In any instance where the Delegate is absent, incapacitated, unwilling or unable to carry out his duties the Vice Delegate shall exercise the powers of the Delegate.


Article II – The Regional Assembly

All Legislative Authority shall be vested in the Regional Assembly.

1.The Regional Assembly shall have the authority to create it's own rules of procedure, consistent with the principles of the Bill of Rights and this constitution.
2.The Regional Assembly shall consist of all nations who seek to participate and have registered their intent to join the Assembly on the Regional Forum.
3.The Assembly is led by the Speaker, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.
4. The Speaker decides the order in which bills will be voted upon and is responsible for opening and closing each vote.
5.The Assembly is granted the power to legislate rules and institutions necessary and proper to carry out the mandates of this Constitution.
6.Voting by the RA will be conducted within a 5 day period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill.
7.The Assembly may remove any holder of any elected or appointed office or position by a motion of recall approved by a two-thirds supermajority of the Regional Assembly.


Article III - Court of The North Pacific

All Judicial Authority shall be vested in the Court of The North Pacific.

1.The Court shall have the authority to create it's own rules of procedure, consistent with the principles of the Bill of Rights and this constitution.
2.The Court shall consist of a Chief Justice and two Associate Justices, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.
3. The Judiciary is vested with the responsibility to oversee all trial proceedings.
4.The Judiciary is vested with the responsibility to conduct all matters of judicial review to examine the constitutionality of Government policies, actions, and laws.
5.The official opinions crafted as a result of judicial review are to be binding upon all agents, officers, agencies, and Government bodies of The North Pacific.
6.An Attorney General appointed by the Delegate shall oversee prosecutions on behalf of the state.


Article IV

1.The Bill of Rights will remain in force with the adoption of this Constitution. Citizens who refuse to participate in government abjure and vacate those rights and are subject to the will of the Delegate upon approval of a simple majority of the RA and provided the Delegate does not veto the RA.
2.All elections shall be held on the region's official off-site forum and shall be held immediately following the adoption of this constitution and as required by the constitution after. Elections shall last for a nomination period of 2 days, followed by a voting period of 5 days.
3.Candidates for these elected officials must be members of the Assembly for 30 days before nominations begin.
4.Election of the Speaker of the Assembly and Judiciary officials shall require a plurality vote of the Assembly,
5.Election of the Delegate and Vice Delegate shall require a majority of the votes cast by the Assembly.
6.The removal or resignation of an elected official shall result in a special election to fulfil the remainder of the term of office.


Article V – Replacing the Constitution

At such time that the original Constitution is capable of being properly serviced and supported by the participation of enough citizens to fill all available position, it shall be restored with no delay

1. This Constitution may be replaced with the approval of three quarters of votes cast in the Assembly in a vote lasting seven days. This vote will not be subject to a Delegate veto.

First off, thanks for your diligence and effort, HC. Good to see things are movin' here! I'll comment / ask questions on a few things:

article 1:

2.The Delegate will be elected from the members of the Regional Assembly after the adoption of this constitution and shall serve until a new Constitution is adopted by the Regional Assembly or for a term not exceeding 12 months.

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I think the 4-6 month term is probably best here, as it has been done in the past, though tbh I'm leaning this way:
- six month terms
- halfway through their term, they may be subject to a recall vote, issued by anyone in the RA. It passes, we move on with elections, it doesn't, we go three more months with our boss.

Speaking as a delegate, the sheer amount of impeachment votes, re-votes, etc is kind of silly. Three months should be a long enough time for the delegate to do things or not do things and have the region draw conclusions as it sees fit.

article 2:

3.The Assembly is led by the Speaker, who shall be elected from the Regional Assembly and shall serve a six month term.

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I'd say three-month term, given the amount of work the RA speaker has and to basically give him or her an 'out' if they don't want to do it anymore rather than just going through the motions.

article 2:

6.Voting by the RA will be conducted within a 5 day period after posting of a Bill and a simple majority +1 of participating RA members shall be sufficient to pass said bill.

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TBH I'm not a big fan of the 'of participating RA members' clause. I think we can have it say 'of the entire body' as long as we have a quick and easy procedure of removing inactive RA members.

article 2:

7.The Assembly may remove any holder of any elected or appointed office or position by a motion of recall approved by a two-thirds supermajority of the Regional Assembly.

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Should probably be specific here as to if this means of those voting or of the entire body. Personally, for such an important vote as this, I'd have it be a 2/3 affirmative vote of the Regional Assembly body.

article 4:

2.All elections shall be held on the region's official off-site forum and shall be held immediately following the adoption of this constitution and as required by the constitution after. Elections shall last for a nomination period of 2 days, followed by a voting period of 5 days.

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Perhaps a nomination period of 3 days? 2 seems a bit short to me, just saying.

3.Candidates for these elected officials must be members of the Assembly for 30 days before nominations begin.

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I never really liked this rule, though I do see it's intent. I just... don't really like the waiting period is all. If you're qualified to do it, and you're new, let the voters rule on that, not the law.

The progressive party believes the period should be 15 days rather than 30.

Eluvatar:

The progressive party believes the period should be 15 days rather than 30.

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Well if it's 15 days, basically 2 weeks, why have a limit at all then? Like I said, eliminate it and may the best nation win. I think the voters here have enough integrity where they can select someone and weigh the fact that a runner in an election has only been an RA guy for a week, for instance.

A limit provides a modicum of deterrence to foreign infiltration of a hostile nature.

Great Bights Mum:

A limit provides a modicum of deterrence to foreign infiltration of a hostile nature.

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Honestly, if a foreign body is going to infiltrate, they will plan 15-30 days in advance as it is.

Todd McCloud:

Great Bights Mum:

A limit provides a modicum of deterrence to foreign infiltration of a hostile nature.

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Honestly, if a foreign body is going to infiltrate, they will plan 15-30 days in advance as it is.

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Yeah, but it takes them a little longer.

@ HC - I like the general framework of your proposed Constitution. Very compact, gives the Delegate more of a role than a simple place-holder. It's fairly close to what we have but distilled down to the essentials. It would require a bit of reworking (or, rather a simplification) of the legal code, but that wouldn't be that difficult.

All in all, I like it.

I really like this one.

Although, I'm with Todd though that it should be 6 months instead of a year.

Todd McCloud:

Great Bights Mum:

A limit provides a modicum of deterrence to foreign infiltration of a hostile nature.

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Honestly, if a foreign body is going to infiltrate, they will plan 15-30 days in advance as it is.

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But that makes the attempt visible, and possible to react against.

One item that has to have one or two minor caveats added into it:

1. The Delegate shall have the authority to expel, at will, any nation that exceeds 66% of the Delegate's endorsement count and do so with impunity and at will.

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There has to be some kind of quick warning system procedure in place and considerations for special conditions (such as immediately after an election where candidates need time to reduce their endorsement levels, and just before elections - there is technically nothing to prevent a sitting Delegate from simply ejecting the competition in an election as written in the above quote).

This is retarded, the whole 30 and 15 day laws were written completely in reaction to Limi's attempted coup as Minister of Immigration or what the position was called that the Speaker now fills. Yes, it may have involved the Lexicon, but that was basically an inside job.

When we say to our newest RA members "Yeah, you can join, but you can't vote on anything and you can't run for any elections for a while" what we are basically saying to them is "Yeah, we don't trust you at all, go sit in a corner for a while and do nothing, that will earn our trust." Its completely stupid and is frankly undemocratic. Also we should either abolish the RA entirely and give TNP citizens voting rights or not have TNP citizens at all and declare you must, at the very least, be in the RA in order to have even the most basic rights.

Right now we're basically there already, only difference is we keep this "TNP citizen" mask to make people feel like they are involved when really we include them in the community as much as we do some random Userite from outside TNP. At this time, people like Gits and Groov, who have been in TNP forever, have as much say in the region as The Greater German Reich recruiters, only difference being they're not banned as often as GGR is.

Hell, Groovistan even got the delegacy from Ermarian when Ermarian fell into complete inactivity. The next day, JAL as Durkadurkiranistan II took the seat from Groov and we all know how that ended. Wouldn't it have been nice if we had been able to include Groov in the region before that incident? Couldn't he have been able to stop the ejection of over 1500 nations from TNP if he had only the most basic of loyalties to this government? Wouldn't he be loyal if, say, we actually give players like him the right to vote? I would like to think so.

The office of Speaker predates the Limitless Events matter by a year or so; but the responsibility for processing applications didn't pass to the R.A. until the December 2007 constitution came into effect, and the R.A. had a chance to pass a law in early 2008.

That's all very well and good, but you seems to ignore the entire point of the post in order to banter about the history of a particular responsibility.

Blue Wolf II:

This is retarded, the whole 30 and 15 day laws were written completely in reaction to Limi's attempted coup as Minister of Immigration or what the position was called that the Speaker now fills. Yes, it may have involved the Lexicon, but that was basically an inside job.

When we say to our newest RA members "Yeah, you can join, but you can't vote on anything and you can't run for any elections for a while" what we are basically saying to them is "Yeah, we don't trust you at all, go sit in a corner for a while and do nothing, that will earn our trust." Its completely stupid and is frankly undemocratic. Also we should either abolish the RA entirely and give TNP citizens voting rights or not have TNP citizens at all and declare you must, at the very least, be in the RA in order to have even the most basic rights.

Right now we're basically there already, only difference is we keep this "TNP citizen" mask to make people feel like they are involved when really we include them in the community as much as we do some random Userite from outside TNP. At this time, people like Gits and Groov, who have been in TNP forever, have as much say in the region as The Greater German Reich recruiters, only difference being they're not banned as often as GGR is.

Hell, Groovistan even got the delegacy from Ermarian when Ermarian fell into complete inactivity. The next day, JAL as Durkadurkiranistan II took the seat from Groov and we all know how that ended. Wouldn't it have been nice if we had been able to include Groov in the region before that incident? Couldn't he have been able to stop the ejection of over 1500 nations from TNP if he had only the most basic of loyalties to this government? Wouldn't he be loyal if, say, we actually give players like him the right to vote? I would like to think so.

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Some very good points, especially the part that I high-lighted.

This is one of the concerns I have concerning 'elitism' and the entrenched power elite that eventually develops from that. This is one of the reasons why we experimented with term limits a long while back. Oddly enough it also proved a failure because democracy and the resulting government is not a spectator sport.

On the flip side of the coin, and to take the Devil's advocate position to make a totally reverse point, a power elite does have it's advantages but only so long as that power elite doesn't develop into an exclusive good old boys' club that excludes new participants. There is a way around this, though.

One of the major gripes I have with the SC is that because of its self governing nature, people who meet the qualifications for membership can be arbitrarily excluded without any legal or constitutional cause and purely out of personal causes or that the person isn't an 'insider'.

For instance, and I say this with the ultimate respect for GBM, but admitting someone to the SC without the proper requirements as to RA membership or Citizenship is not provided for in the Constitution or the Law. While I support GBM for the SC under any conditions, the creation of a special legislative condition to work around the constitutional requirements and procedure is a dangerous precedent to set.

Taking a very libertarian stance as I generally do, the government is here to serve the citizens, not the other way around. The government is a function of the citizens, not the other way around.

We also must consider that the government should represent everyone, as in a Republic, even those who refuse to participate. I don't think that those who do not participate abrogate their rights as a general rule, but those who are not citizens are guests in the region and if they violate the laws, they can be removed, but only after the proper legal proceedings (invaders and others engaging in what is tantamount to an act of war or acting as foreign agents not withstanding).

I remember way back when you (Blue Wolf) first entered our region. You wanted TNP to be either a base for or sanctuary for raiders (or something to that effect). I also remember that I suggested to the powers that be that we might learn something useful and applicable for defense purposes something from 'raiders'. Of course, I got pooh-poohed by the power elite on this suggestions.

And then again, you got elected delegate despite not being part of the 'in crowd'. And because you were not part of the 'in-crowd' you are essentially being run out of office near the end of your term (and pointlessly at this point) despite a peaceful and stable Delegacy (and often amusing at points which is something we need around here). The region is secure, there are no real threats of invaders that mean anything, and things are lively once again.

Nevertheless, I voted for your recall because I wanted to prove to the paranoid power elite that you would step down as Delegate in respect to the RA vote should they vote to recall. Doing so on your part in the event that you actually get recalled would show the silliness of the the whole power elite's purpose of maintaining power of the few over the many, would show them the fools.

Now, to keep this thread from being split or moved, I return to the original point:

We need to either modify or wholesale replace the Constitution as it now stands or this region will stagnate under a static and stagnant power elite that exists for the purpose of its own perpetuation which, as history proves, will develop and be perverted into a tyranny if allowed to go unchequed. They may not realize what they are doing because it gradually develops.

Government should be in fear of the people, not the other way around.

Romanoffia:

One of the major gripes I have with the SC is that because of its self governing nature, people who meet the qualifications for membership can be arbitrarily excluded without any legal or constitutional cause and purely out of personal causes or that the person isn't an 'insider'.

For instance, and I say this with the ultimate respect for GBM, but admitting someone to the SC without the proper requirements as to RA membership or Citizenship is not provided for in the Constitution or the Law. While I support GBM for the SC under any conditions, the creation of a special legislative condition to work around the constitutional requirements and procedure is a dangerous precedent to set.

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I'm sorry for only commenting on a small portion of your post (which was a good read) and sorry for taking this a bit off-course, but personally I think the SC should be disbanded, and in its place are 2-4 members who are allowed to stay over an endorsement cap, hold zero government power (except if they're in another body, like the RA for instance), and only move into action when there's the threat of a coup. No extra sub-forum. No organized committees or the like. They should be like the guards of the region: watching silently, and acting when it is time for war.