UN Delegate voting by UN members

Zemnaya Svoboda

Zemnaya Svoboda

TNPer
Emperor Matthuis:
Will the nations who voted but do not have UN nations in The North Pacific have their votes excluded?
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Constitution III.1.C:
C - All Nations who have joined the Regional Assembly under the provisions of Article II, Section 2, of this Constitution and who reside in The North Pacific, or are active members of The North Pacific Army or The North Pacific Intelligence Agency, shall be entitled to submit a single vote for each election regardless of UN status. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations.
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This gives those with UN nations outside the region the vote for each election.
 
ZS, that is the rule for elections other than Delegate and Vice Delegate. For those two offices, the UN must be in TNP, and that UN nation must be in the records of the MIIA.)
 
Grosseschnauzer:
ZS, that is the rule for elections other than Delegate and Vice Delegate. For those two offices, the UN must be in TNP, and that UN nation must be in the records of the MIIA.)
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Could you please quote the part of the Constitution that contains this specific provision. I can't find it.
 
Blackshear:
QUOTE (Grosseschnauzer @ Feb 7 2007, 02:12 PM)
ZS, that is the rule for elections other than Delegate and Vice Delegate. For those two offices, the UN must be in TNP, and that UN nation must be in the records of the MIIA.)

Could you please quote the part of the Constitution that contains this specific provision. I can't find it.
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It was part of the Constitution as ratified at s2 and s11 following the Constitutional Convention. It wasn't there when we moved to this forum. I'm having problems finding the amendment threads at S2, so I can't pin down whether it was changed by an amendment or not. But it was part of our law, (and it had not registered on me that it had been changed.) The whole reason for the UN Delegate election being in a separate thead was because, as the passage indicated, the vote was supposed to be limited to UN mrmbers in TNP (or who were on assignment with the NPA.)

TNP Constitution as ratified following Constitutional Convention:
4) One week following the official opening of the campaign period, The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall post a topic on the Regional off-site forum for Delegate elections, listing all candidates and describing the procedure for casting votes. The election period for the Delegate shall coincide with the election period for the Prime Minister and the ministers of the Cabinet. The Delegate election thread shall be accessible only to UN member Nations residing within The North Pacific, and who have registered to vote. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations. Any person found doing so shall have their votes invalidated, and if done using more than one UN member Nation, shall be reported to the NationStates Moderators on grounds of UN Multiing. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs may request the ability to view IP addresses of Nations during this period to verify votes. Nations may also send a message directly to the Minister of Internal Affairs to cast their vote, and the Minister shall post each such vote received in the official tally of the election returns.
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I recall this provision from the convention (and understand the rationale). However, I double-checked it before casting my Delegate and Vice-Delegate votes and could no longer find the reference.

Seems to me the votes from non-TNP UN members will have to be accepted as the constitution, as it appears here on our forum, makes no mention of any requirement for Delegate and VD voting other than Regional Assembly membership.
 
Seems so. :tb1:

Following Grosseschnauzer over to s2, it is apparent that in the constitution before the amendment creating TNP Law 5, there were these two consecutive sections:

4) One week following the official opening of the campaign period, The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall post a topic on the Regional off-site forum for Delegate elections, listing all candidates and describing the procedure for casting votes. The election period for the Delegate shall coincide with the election period for the Prime Minister and the Ministers of the Cabinet. The Delegate election thread shall be accessible only to UN member Nations residing within The North Pacific, and who have registered to vote. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations. Any person found doing so shall have their votes invalidated, and if done using more than one UN member Nation, shall be reported to the NationStates Moderators on grounds of UN Multiing. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs may request the ability to view IP addresses of Nations during this period to verify votes. Nations may also send a message directly to the Minister of Internal Affairs to cast their vote, and the Minister shall post each such vote received in the official tally of the election returns.
5) One week following the opening of the voting period, the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall close the voting thread and tally the votes. Once a winner is ascertained, through a majority of votes cast, the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall declare which candidate has been designated as the Delegate in the election, and the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs will have the duty of informing all UN member Nations residing in the Region of the result. UN member Nations shall be requested to unendorse the incumbent Delegate, if necessary, and be requested to endorse the newly elected Delegate. However, no Nation may be compelled to endorse or unendorse any Nation with respect to the Regional Delegacy. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs may request the aid of any Nation he deems necessary to complete this procedure as expeditiously as possible. It is specifically intended that the newly elected Delegate is to be installed in office in accordance with NationStates procedures for the determination of a Delegate of a region within a week of the certification of the election.
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The second of these, perhaps in shortened form, is present in TNP law 5:
B - One week following the opening of the voting period, the Election Commissioners shall close the voting thread and tally the votes. Once the results are ascertained, the Election Commissioners shall post a certificate of results at the off-site regional forum and shall declare which candidates have been elected. It will include a statement concerning the voting period for any required runoff election where the results so require.
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And then part of it present elsewhere:
B - The Election Commissioners shall include in the certificate of results a statement as to which candidate has been designated as the Delegate and the Vice Delegate in the election. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs will promptly notify all UN member Nations residing in the Region of the determination of the election results. The notification will include a request to all UN member Nations to unendorse the incumbent Delegate and Vice Delegate, if necessary, and a request that they endorse the newly designated Delegate and Vice Delegate. However, no Nation may be compelled to endorse or unendorse any Nation with respect to the Regional Delegacy or the Vice Delegate. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs may request the aid of any Nation he deems necessary to complete this procedure as expeditiously as possible. It is specifically intended that the newly elected Delegate and Vice Delegate are to be installed in office in accordance with NationStates procedures for the determination of a Delegate of a region within 2 weeks of the certification of the election.
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My guess is that when the constitution was amended, the part that required a UN Nation in The North Pacific was dropped.
 
There's another problem at the moment, which is that most of the Deleate election voters have not posted their UN nation so there's no way to verify that the user has the same UN nation that the MIIA has records of, and thst the UN nation has not CTE'd.

Fixing the missing sentence is not the problem it might have been since it can be added to the Legal Code and not the Constitution. (And the election provisions in the Constition permit that to be done.

Haor Chall has already suggested another fix be passed as well, so we'll just deal with it after the voting is over. There are other things that need to be corrected, such as the Legal Code references to registered voters.
 
I found the proposal
that removed the "UN in The North Pacific" clause:

Grosseschnauzer Sep 17 2005:
A Proposal for A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT Relating to the Revision and Consolidation of Procedures for the Election of Cabinet Ministers, the Prime Minister, the UN Delegate, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE NATIONS OF THE NORTH PACIFIC:
That Sections 1, 6, and 7 of ARTICLE III, relating to Elections and Elected Offices, be amended as follows:

I.
Sections 1, 6 and 7 of ARTICLE III as they read prior to this amendment are repealed.
II.
A new Section 1 of ARTICLE III is adopted to read:
Section 1. Election Procedures.
A - Procedures for the election of the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister, the other Ministers of the Cabinet, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council shall be as provided by this Constitution and by law in The North Pacific Legal Code.
B - Elections and referendums shall take place on the designated The North Pacific regional off-site forum. Elections for all elected members of the Cabinet, including the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister, the other elected Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council, shall be held every three calendar months in the months of February, May, August, and November. Voting shall commence at 12:00 am GMT on the first day of the designated month and end at 11:59 pm GMT on the seventh day of the designated month. Voting in any necessary runoff election shall commence at 12:00 am GMT on the tenth day of the designated month and end at 11:59 pm GMT on the sixteenth day of the designated month. Nations take office when a certificate of results of an election are published at the designated regional off-site forum.
C - All Nations who have registered to vote under the provisions of Article II, Section 2, of this Constitution and who reside in The North Pacific, or are active members of The North Pacific Army or The North Pacific Intelligence Agency, shall be entitled to submit a single vote for each election regardless of UN status. No person shall be permitted to cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations.
D - Only Nations who are registered to vote when the voting period of any election or referendum commences shall be entitled to vote, which shall take place exclusively at the designated regional off-site forum.
E - Nations that register to vote after a voting period commences shall not be able to vote in the election of offices or positions under this Constitution, or on referenda as to any other matter subject to a vote of registered voters or of the Regional Assembly as provided in this Constitution, or The North Pacific Legal Code, until the next election or referendum that occurs after that Nation's registration is validated and accepted.
F - The quorum requirement for registered voters in referenda on motions to approve, ratify or confirm actions, nominations or appointments, and on bills to enact laws, do not apply to the elections of the UN Delegate, the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Ministers, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council for a full term, or for any necessary runoff elections.
G - Candidates must adhere to the provisions on term limitations provided in Article III, Section 3, of this Constitution. If and when elected, candidates automatically resign any office they may then hold, other than as a member of the Regional Assembly, unless they have been elected to a consecutive term in that same office.
III.
A co-ordinated bill for an Act that enacts provisions in The North Pacific Legal Code concerning election procedures is enacted as part of this Amendment and shall be effective as any other law enacted as part of The North Pacific Legal Code when this Amendment is adopted as part of the Constitution pursuant to Article VII. That bill is incorporated into this Amendment by this reference.

A Bill for An Act Related to the Procedures for the Election of Cabinet Ministers, the Prime Minister, the UN Delegate, the Speaker of the Regional Assembly, and the Security Council.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE NATIONS OF THE NORTH PACIFIC:
NEW CHAPTER. Election Procedures
Section 1. Election Commissioners
The election process shall be organized and overseen for each election cycle by one or more Election Commissioners who shall be determined as follows:
A - Unless the outgoing incumbent serving as Prime Minister plans to be a candidate for election to any office in the Cabinet, including the UN Delegate, or for Speaker of the Regional Assembly in that election cycle, the outgoing Prime Minister shall serve as an Election Commissioner.
B - Unless the outgoing incumbent serving as Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs plans to be a candidate for election to any office in the Cabinet, including the UN Delegate, or for Speaker of the Regional Assembly in that election cycle, the outgoing Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall serve as an Election Commissioner.
C - In the event either or both the outgoing incumbents serving as Prime Minister and the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs intend to be candidates for election, then the Prime Minister and the Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs shall jointly designate, with the consent of a majority of the remaining Cabinet Ministers, not less than one nor more than two persons to serve as Election Commissioners for that election cycle. Each designee shall declare their intention not to be a candidate for election during that election cycle to any office and shall have previously served in office as an elected UN Delegate, as Prime Minister, as an elected Cabinet Minister, as Speaker of the Regional Assembly, or as a Justice of The Court of The North Pacific.
D- The designation of Election Commissioners shall be completed not less than 15 days prior to the beginning of the voting period for elections as designated in Section 2.
E - The Election Commissioners may request the ability to view IP addresses of Nations, or request the assistance of the off-site forum administrators, during this period to verify voters.
Section 2. Declarations and Nominations of Candidacy
A - Any member Nation of the Region that is a registered voter and that is not ineligible to serve by any restriction or limitation of service provision or by an additional qualification for office in the Constitution, may declare its candidacy for Prime Minister or any elected Cabinet Minister.
B- Any member Nation of the Region that is a registered voter who has elected membership in the Regional Assembly and that is not ineligible to serve by any restriction or limitation of service provision or an additional qualification for office in the Constitution, may declare its candidacy for Speaker of the Regional Assembly or for a seat on the Security Council.
C - Any member Nation with UN member status located within the Region that has registered to vote and that is not ineligible to serve by any restriction or limitation of service provision or an additional qualification for office in the Constitution, may declare its candidacy for UN Delegate. Such Nation that has UN membership shall have resided in The North Pacific for at least three months, and shall have been active on the Regional off-site forum for at least one month at the time of nomination or declaration of candidacy for election to the office of Delegate.
D- Such declarations may be made during a seven day period starting 10 days prior to the designated voting period for the election cycle for the next term of office. Alternatively, any three Nations that are registered voters may nominate a Nation as a candidate for UN Delegate, Prime Minister, a specific elected Cabinet Minister, Speaker of the Regional Assembly or for a seat on the Security Council during a seven day period starting 10 days prior to the designated voting period for the election cycle for the next term of office. The Election Commissioners or their designees shall verify the eligibility of each Nation that declares or is nominated as a candidate, and shall publish the certified list of candidates for each office or position no later than one day prior to the beginning of the voting period.
Section 3. Voting Procedures
A - No later than the day immediately preceding the beginning of a voting period in an election cycle, the Election Commissioners or their designee shall post a topic on the Regional off-site forum for voting in the election describing the procedure for casting votes. The Election Commissioners shall determine whether a separate thread will be used for UN Delegate election voting from all other voting in the election. Nations may also vote by private message to a designated user account at the designated regional off-site regional forum, and the Election Commissioners shall post each such vote received in the official tally of the election returns.
B - One week following the opening of the voting period, the Election Commissioners shall close the voting thread and tally the votes. Once the results are ascertained, the Election Commissioners shall post a certificate of results at the designated regional off-site forum and shall declare which candidates have been elected. It will include a statement concerning the voting period for any required runoff election where the results so require.
Section 4. Runoff Elections.
A - When an Office has no candidate obtaining a majority, the two highest-placed candidates shall enter into a runoff.
B - If the second-highest candidate position is tied, the candidates so tied shall enter into a runoff with the highest-placed candidate.
C - If there is a tie for the highest-placed candidate position, only those candidates so tied shall enter into a runoff election.
D - The runoff election shall utilize the same procedures as for the initial round of elections. A plurality shall determine the winner of the runoff election.
E - In the event of a tie in any office other than the UN Delegate, the incoming UN Delegate has the right to cast a vote to break the tie, pursuant to Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution. In the event of a tie in a runoff election for UN Delegate, the incoming Cabinet shall vote to break the tie, pursuant to Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution.
Section 5. Campaigning
A - The Election Commissioners or their designee shall post a message on the Regional off-site forum formally declaring the start of the declaration and nomination period for the election cycle which will commence the campaign period. The Election Commissioners or their designee shall also post one message per day on the NationStates Regional Civil Headquarters Message Board announcing the campaign period and elections.
B - All candidates shall be permitted to post a campaign topic thread on the Regional offsite forum.
C - Candidates for UN Delegate shall be permitted to post campaign notices on the Regional Civil Headquarters Message Board located on the region's page at Nationstates.net. Candidates for UN Delegate shall not post more than one such message on the Regional Civil Headquarters Message Board per day. Posting more than one such notice within 24 hours will constitute a forfeiture of their candidacy for election as UN Delegate for the Region, and may be subject to NationStates Moderator intervention. Candidates for UN Delegate may contact UN member Nations within the Region via telegram to advertise their campaign, but no candidate may send more than one telegram to any single Nation during the campaign period, unless said nation has replied to a telegram sent by the candidate.
Section 6. Additional Procedures for Election for UN Delegate for the Region.
A - The Nation elected under the procedures in the Constitution and the North Pacific Legal Code is the formal designee of the region who is to be designated as the UN Delegate for the Region by the voluntary endorsement of UN member Nations within the Region for the three month term upon declaration of the election in the canvass of results by the Election Commissioners.
B - The Election Commissioners shall include in the certificate of results a statement as to which candidate has been designated as the Delegate in the election. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs will promptly notify all UN member Nations residing in the Region of the determination of the election results. The notification will include a request to all UN member Nations to unendorse the incumbent Delegate, if necessary, and a request that they endorse the newly designated Delegate. However, no Nation may be compelled to endorse or unendorse any Nation with respect to the Regional Delegacy. The Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs may request the aid of any Nation he deems necessary to complete this procedure as expeditiously as possible. It is specifically intended that the newly elected Delegate is to be installed in office in accordance with NationStates procedures for the determination of a Delegate of a region within 2 weeks of the certification of the election.
Section 7. Violations
A - Any person found to have cast more than one vote, through one or more Nations, shall have their votes invalidated, and if the votes were cast using more than one UN member Nation, the Election Commissioners shall report such fact to the NationStates Moderators as evidence of UN Multiing.
B - Outright endorsement swapping with respect to the election of the UN Delegate is prohibited.
C - Slander of any candidates for office, including the incumbents of such offices, or of other Nations is prohibited.
D - Violation of the provisions in this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code on the part of any candidate for election will result in a immediate review by the Attorney General to determine if charges should be filed under Article V of this Constitution, and may include the possibility that a regional ban may be imposed in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code.
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The Vote

And now I need sleep. :bunny:
 
Indeed. As it stands they the moment, neither the constitution or legal code make any requirements of voters in delegate elections, other than to be RA members. Not only do you not have to have a UN nation in TNP, you don't have to have a UN nation at all.
 
It seems strange to close the vote mere hours after this is resolved. I'm sure there are people who thought that they couldn't vote who actually could have.
 
Zemnaya Svoboda:
It seems strange to close the vote mere hours after this is resolved. I'm sure there are people who thought that they couldn't vote who actually could have.
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I doubt that this is much of a problem, if any at all. The question of UN membership was raised fairly late in the voting period, and not right away. I wouldn't totally discount the possibility, but I wouldn't go nearly so far as to declare that there definately are people who didn't vote out of confusion.
 
I mean people who, based on how we had held elections before, thought they weren't allowed to vote and didn't have a chance to see this discussion.
 
This procedure has been followed in previous elections, it would be unfair not to follow it on this one without at least informing the members.
 
Yes, how terribly unfair to expect RA members, who have pledged to obey the constitution and legal code, to have actually read them. But its all right, we'll just ignore the bits that cause problems.

Hell, if I'd known we were just ditching the bits of the constitution that were inconvenient, Great Bights Mum would still be a VD candidate. Because that was far more of a grey area than this is. And thinking about it, I know its not actually in the constitution, but votes from anyone who voted for Blue Wolf aren't being accepted either, anyone who did is obviously an invader sympathiser and not to be trusted.

Unfortunately the constitution is what it is, and if you start ignoring it, then there is no point in having it at all. Now it might have happened by mistake, and it might not make much sense, but changing the constitution is down to the RA as a whole, not the individuals who have to work with it.

So I'm sorry if people haven't vote out of confusion, but the constitution freely available, and despite what some people say, isn't too difficult to decipher if looking for a particular topic. So if people have a problem with it, I'd suggest they start drafting amendments before the next election hits. And if people really have a problem with it, I'd recommend calling of a judicial ruling.

(Oh btw, that bit about anyone who voted for Blue Wolf, it was a joke. Obviously, I hope... :unsure:)
 
Thank you Namyeknom. While I may have preferred an extended voting period because of this, I do agree that we must above all respect our laws. Our laws say that any RA member can vote in delegate elections. That is the full sum of it.
 
Namyeknom:
Yes, how terribly unfair to expect RA members, who have pledged to obey the constitution and legal code, to have actually read them. But its all right, we'll just ignore the bits that cause problems.

Hell, if I'd known we were just ditching the bits of the constitution that were inconvenient, Great Bights Mum would still be a VD candidate. Because that was far more of a grey area than this is. And thinking about it, I know its not actually in the constitution, but votes from anyone who voted for Blue Wolf aren't being accepted either, anyone who did is obviously an invader sympathiser and not to be trusted.

Unfortunately the constitution is what it is, and if you start ignoring it, then there is no point in having it at all. Now it might have happened by mistake, and it might not make much sense, but changing the constitution is down to the RA as a whole, not the individuals who have to work with it.

So I'm sorry if people haven't vote out of confusion, but the constitution freely available, and despite what some people say, isn't too difficult to decipher if looking for a particular topic. So if people have a problem with it, I'd suggest they start drafting amendments before the next election hits. And if people really have a problem with it, I'd recommend calling of a judicial ruling.

(Oh btw, that bit about anyone who voted for Blue Wolf, it was a joke. Obviously, I hope... :unsure:)
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This.

Also, Nam FTW. Again.
 
ok WTF? During my term as MoJ and even till I read this thread, and as stated on my Dummies guide, the Delegate election should be restricted to RA members and that only. Who cares about UN if it's a citizen?

ZS, once the elections are over you have my solemn promise that this will be upheld in whatever legislative action you wish.
 
ZS, Mr sniffles guide was an update/revision od the guide hersfold wrote, so it's evidence that the general perception was that the restictions on who could vote on the Delegate existed.

I can be quickly addressed by legislation as can the application of term limits on the capacity of a term-limited candidate running for Vice Delegate.

Yhanksfully, both mtters appear to be tings we can address by amendments to the Legal COde, and we peobably won't need amendments to the Constitution itself. (The Constitution itself permits the Legal Code to impose additional procedures, restrictions, and limits beyond the provisions listed in the Constitution.

Once these results for the general election are posted, I will addreess the areas where I believe action is needed from the Regional Assembly. There are some other laws that haven't been updated (the Law on the MIIA still refers to "registered voters," as a for instance). I lso have some more specific thoughts as to how to tweak the laws on the jury system, and on impeachment, so that the processes can be speeded up. But it doesn't help when the Court does not follow the Law on criminal proceeding.
 
Um I believe Mr Sniffles was saying that the UN did not have to be in The North Pacific and that he had been aware of this, not vice versa.
 
(Namyeknom:
(Oh btw, that bit about anyone who voted for Blue Wolf, it was a joke. Obviously, I hope... )
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No worries, I have long suspected that voting for me became a TNP social taboo long ago of which only the crazy brave or unwitting have the misfortune of charging headlong into :P
 
What does having a UN in or out affect the actual vote? Yes, it does affect how one becomes a citizen and yes, they should inform the MoIIA but doesn't this simply make it a matter for registration and citizenship? It's up to the MoIIA not the election commissioners.
 
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