On Alignment

St George

RolePlay Moderator
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Deputy Speaker
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Pronouns
He/Him, They/Them
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On Alignment

For years The North Pacific has been a vocal and staunch subscriber of The Independent Manifesto. At that time, as it is now, the military landscape was divided by the dichotomy between raiders and defenders, and The North Pacific found itself naturally drawn to a third way. Independence allowed The North Pacific to pursue more nuanced and pragmatic positions and operations, and ever since, we have continued to pursue policies and operations that further the interests of The North Pacific and our community. Many have criticized the Manifesto and The North Pacific specifically for laying out an ideology that professed to allow the pursuit of regional self-interest, but without ever being able to explain what those values actually were. This criticism was false, and based on a failure to recognize a fundamental truth inherent in Independence: a region’s self-interest can and does often change as circumstances around it change, and the needs and wants of the citizens evolve over time.

The last year has revealed in the clearest fashion yet just what The North Pacific’s values are, and how they fit with the tenets of The Independent Manifesto. In the process of coming to a better understanding of those values and their place in the NS of 2022, we have come to a clearer understanding of our relationship with the binary R/D world as well. Simply put, it is not in The North Pacific’s interest to continue to seek a third way that specifically avoids favoring raiding or defending for the sake of avoiding affiliation, because doing so does not allow us to be consistent and true to our core principles. Instead, we can articulate those principles and advance our values far more effectively by championing a new vision firmly within the R/D spectrum. We wish to share that vision with the world, explain how we got here and where we hope to go from here.

First and foremost: The North Pacific is a staunch believer in democracy, in self-governance and broad freedoms for the residents and citizens of all regions in NationStates. We believe in sovereignty, and in a game community free from fascism, Nazi disruptors, and OOC problematic individuals. Whenever we have seen these things threatened, we have acted. These principles have led us to liberate regions whose identity and freedom were threatened, and to destroy others seeking to spread the poison of fascist thought. We have denounced and acted against those who would invade and permanently destroy communities. Our convictions have resulted in laws in our own region that strictly regulate the types of operations our military can participate in, such that we have taken great care not to allow our soldiers to engage in destructive acts of griefing without the approval of the Regional Assembly. As time has gone on, our fellow Independent Manifesto signatories have done the same. Increasingly we have been left with tag raiding as the most viable type of raid for us to engage in, due not only to our own laws, but the current makeup of the NPA and the partners we can work with.

The trouble is, tag raiding is an activity which has been virtually eliminated as an option in today’s military landscape, and which benefited our interests only so far as it helped train our troops and allow us to further our relationship with other organizations and regions. Additionally, given the prevalence of defender operations and an unmistakable shift in culture not only abroad but in The North Pacific, and recent events impacting our partnerships with R/D organizations, we simply do not have a way to partner with those who exclusively engage in raids, nor the will to forge better relations with them.

In such a game state, there are few significant raiding organizations, let alone regions explicitly subscribing to raider ideology. The North Pacific has frequently partnered with two of these long-lasting organizations, The Black Hawks and Lone Wolves United. Recently, The North Pacific suspended our working and diplomatic relationships with these organizations. We will not repeat the specifics, which our previous statement regarding the recent events in Stargate makes abundantly clear. We should also note this is not the first time we have had to suspend working with The Black Hawks, as this was only the latest careless act on their part. They have continually walked up to the line of unacceptable behavior, such as their quorum raid of one of our author’s proposals, their repeated hamfisted attempts to interfere with our ally The South Pacific’s affairs, and their poor handling of spies and members who leaked information that negatively affected our diplomatic and military affairs; but they have always done so in such a way that they could plausibly profess to be idiots rather than intelligent, malicious manipulators (though there are some who believe they are both).

What we learned in the hours after the events in Stargate was that The Black Hawks continue to be unable to take responsibility for their actions, and that they plead ignorance, even when transparently false, in the mistaken hopes that that would somehow get them out of trouble. The North Pacific has spoken at great length, perhaps at much greater length than is deserved, with The Black Hawks, hoping to instill some measure of caution and respect for our values and our friends. Sadly, they have continuously failed to meet such expectations.

As a result of the change in our relationship with our former raider partners, The North Pacific has effectively ceased any feasible raiding activity the NPA could engage in. We have concluded it is currently not in our best interest to work with these organizations, but more than that, it is not in our interest to pursue most raiding operations more generally. The North Pacific is not a community that inspires raiding activity, and while our interests do not center around R/D, the game is in a state where R/D is of much greater interest. Our players, and those who would serve in our military, are no different. Now is a time where our values and the hearts and minds of our citizens are most in alignment with the world of defending, and our commitment to Independent ideals cannot overlook that. If Independence is about focusing only on our interests and paying no mind to how many operations of one type or another we do, then this should not only be unsurprising, but inevitable. It should be noted that our other democratic allies, and even those who do not subscribe to democracy, often protect democracy and its underlying values through their acts of defending. More often than not, the organizations and regions that make up the defender sphere are fighting for the very same values that we have championed for over a decade. We must make this shift to continue to speak credibly on these issues.

The North Pacific is inclined to be a region that defends when it uses its military, and to support and work alongside other regions and organizations which defend. But even though that is true, we must recognize that the defender sphere is diverse and not of one mind. It contains staunch moralists like 10000 Islands and highly competitive updaters like The Grey Wardens, and they do not always agree on vision or tactics. Were The North Pacific to call itself a defender region, many in the defender sphere would disagree with the notion. This is because we have convictions and engage in practices that many defenders would deem unacceptable, and we proudly stand by them. Foremost among these is quorum raiding, but even the fact that The North Pacific is inclined to raid in order to achieve its interests would be a mark against us being considered defenders for some. This sort of response has traditionally caused the continuation of The North Pacific’s staunch adherence to Independence and continuing to shy away from ever even favoring one side of the R/D divide. It does not have to.

Especially in today’s growing defender consensus, it is important to contextualize when a raid is appropriate. The North Pacific will raid to destroy facist regions; during a time of war; to topple delegates of regions that wronged our region but did not rise to the level of war; and to assist our allies in similar situations. The North Pacific will quorum raid to stop fascist propaganda in the WA; to sanction other regions; and to assist our allies in similar situations. These examples of raids are almost definitionally rare, and we hope, as we always have, that these operations will not be necessary.

The North Pacific today has an obvious default and natural preference in the R/D world. While it wouldn’t make sense to define ourselves exclusively by that preference, or lock our military into it, in practice The North Pacific moving forward is almost always going to be a defender when active in the R/D sphere. It is important that we live our principles and values, and defending is a natural extension of them. We hope to inspire our community and consistently strengthen our bonds with our allies through the operations we choose to assist, or sometimes lead, and defending is a natural way to achieve these things. We believe that the defender sphere is diverse enough to have the NPA occupy such a space, and we also believe that we are not alone. Many in our history have been naturally inclined to support defenders and even subscribe to that label, but felt out of place or alienated by the dominant and loudest voices present in the defender sphere. Given our natural alliance with the defender ideology, not to mention our compatibility with it, we wish to further contribute to the diversity of the defender sphere, and show that there is a space for pragmatic players who will strike only when absolutely necessary, and for good reasons, not for malicious ones. We wish to show that raiding is a tool, and that being willing to engage in offense to defend one’s principles and values and one’s community is as acceptable as invading a region to prevent another invading group from defacing or supplanting it.

Some might call this The North Pacific going defender, others will probably call it a particular kind of Independence. It doesn’t matter. This is as fair a description of our values and philosophy regarding R/D as any we can currently imagine. A key part of Independence is being able to eschew the binary labels NS military has used since its inception, but as we all know, people will use whatever labels they wish regardless of how accurate or fair they are, just as they have in the past when referring to regions subscribing to Independence. Given our recent announcement regarding our former raider partners, and a trend that has been years in the making, we do not even believe this shift is much of a shift, but simply an accurate and honest accounting of where things stand now. Practically speaking, it means the end of all unnecessary raiding activity by the NPA, and the permanent end of joint operations with raider organizations. It means an almost exclusive shift to defensive operations and joint operations with defender organizations.

We look forward to playing a bigger part in the R/D sphere in 2022, and in contributing our voice to the chorus of freedom, liberty, and democracy that is so often a hallmark of the defender sphere at its best.
 
Oh hell no. Y'all done fucked it up this time.
Not really. We've made changes based on our interests, the actions of our allies and the situation on the ground.

Sorry if that's disappointing to you but it's not anywhere near as bad as abandoning the region during a delegacy transition so uh... maybe some perspective is in order?
 
Time to come out of retirement to fix it?
Haha. No.

Sorry if that's disappointing to you but it's not anywhere near as bad as abandoning the region during a delegacy transition so uh... maybe some perspective is in order?
RL > NS always, my man. If you'd like to poke fun at that then be my guest, but funnily enough, I remember specifically leaving the Delegacy in the capable hands of @Pallaith when I needed to leave and I also remember giving the Security Council plenty of advanced notice about my intentions to do so.

Your notion that I "abandoned the region during a delegacy transition," as if I just phased out of thin air like another former Vice Delegate that we know, is unfortunately about as authentic as the rationale behind the statement presented in this thread. Do carry on, though
 
RL > NS always, my man. If you'd like to poke fun at that then be my guest, but funnily enough, I remember specifically leaving the Delegacy in the capable hands of @Pallaith when I needed to leave and I also remember giving the Security Council plenty of advanced notice about my intentions to do so.

Your notion that I "abandoned the region during a delegacy transition," as if I just phased out of thin air like another former Vice Delegate that we know, is unfortunately about as authentic as the rationale behind the statement presented in this thread. Do carry on, though
Your RL situation was such that you could hold the in-game delegacy but could post over 3,000 messages in The North Pacific discord from the 17th when you resigned the delegacy and the 10th of December when you left the discord - I'm all for keeping RL and NS separate but my man you were certainly active enough to have been a constant presence in that time.

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, your memory is almost definitely selective in this case, given that you resigned the day of telling the Security Council that you wanted out.

But please, if the rationale behind this statement and our move isn't 'authentic' what is the secret real reason we did it? I'm sure everyone's on tenterhooks to hear what it is you think is behind this.
 
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Your RL situation was such that you could hold the in-game delegacy but could post over 3,000 messages in The North Pacific discord from the 17th when you resigned the delegacy and the 10th of December when you left the discord - I'm all for keeping RL and NS separate but my man you were certainly active enough to have been a constant presence in that time.
Shitposting on Discord ≠ having in-game responsibilities and the pressure of the region on your shoulders. You should know that.

Also, I'll remind you that I left my nation on a CTE timer since October, signifying that I was done with the game and was merely waiting for my citizenship to expire as a result of not maintaining residency. That did, in fact, happen. A nation -- or having a desire to play the game for that matter -- isn't required to post on Discord and keep in touch with people.

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, your memory is almost definitely selective in this case, given that you resigned the day of telling the Security Council that you wanted out.
Still wrong. Try searching my post in the SC's channel and you'll see that I was more than willing to give them as much time as they needed before I resigned my World Assembly status.

It was Ghost who told me that I could do so that day, as he was first in the LoS and would have gotten the seat anyway. Not sure how that's selective memory when you can literally confirm this, but go off I suppose.

But please, if the rationale behind this statement and our move isn't 'authentic' what is the secret real reason we did it? I'm sure everyone's on tenterhooks to hear what it is you think is behind this.
Uhm... no.

There's not some boogeyman in the shadows pulling the strings. I know who's behind it, obviously. The people who put out the statement (i.e. you and your Minister of Foreign Affairs). It's not hard. Although I do find the uwu version of the statement to be much more endearing than the actual one :P
 
This was a much needed diplomatic transition that previous Delegates should have taken quite a time ago, but didn't. Great job MJ.
The circumstances leading up to this event mostly occurred during MJ’s term (notably the Stargate thorn). It’s hardly a moral issue, if that’s what you’re thinking of.
 
The circumstances leading up to this event mostly occurred during MJ’s term (notably the Stargate thorn). It’s hardly a moral issue, if that’s what you’re thinking of.
True, however it kind of is a moral issue. Just because the natives of other regions are being raided, and they aren't our allies doesn't mean they shouldn't be recognized. How come it's only Stargate that sparked all this controversy?
 
True, however it kind of is a moral issue. Just because the natives of other regions are being raided, and they aren't our allies doesn't mean they shouldn't be recognized. How come it's only Stargate that sparked all this controversy?
Because Stargate *is* our ally. Though, as MJ mentioned, this wasn't the primary cause of this change.
 
This was a much needed diplomatic transition that previous Delegates should have taken quite a time ago, but didn't. Great job MJ.
You... don't know what you're talking about.

In fact, up until recently, the Independent sphere of gameplay was quite happy to forge its own way and travel down the third, less-traveled path. Believe it or not, that's actually something that this region used to hang its hat on and be proud about. So it's a shame to see it squandered away in favor of full-fledged defenderism, but I digress.
 
You... don't know what you're talking about.

In fact, up until recently, the Independent sphere of gameplay was quite happy to forge its own way and travel down the third, less-traveled path. Believe it or not, that's actually something that this region used to hang its hat on and be proud about. So it's a shame to see it squandered away in favor of full-fledged defenderism, but I digress.
The idea that this is 'full-fledged defenderism' is fucking laughable. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

The first operation we did after announcing this move was a raid. Raiding is still part of our program, it's just that those raids have to be meaningful, not just raiding for raiding's sake.
 
As a NPA General and the NPA soldier with the most ops in TNP's history, I am fully behind the NPA reporting to and supporting the delegate. The only thing I can say is that we've been down this road before and the only reason I'm still here is there will eventually be another delegate and ideaology will return to "normal".
 
This isn't so much a moral issue.
As you said "isn't so much", however there is even to the slightest measure, at least in my opinion, which I'm not trying to enforce on anyone.
You... don't know what you're talking about.

In fact, up until recently, the Independent sphere of gameplay was quite happy to forge its own way and travel down the third, less-traveled path. Believe it or not, that's actually something that this region used to hang its hat on and be proud about. So it's a shame to see it squandered away in favor of full-fledged defenderism, but I digress.
Sure, I don't know what I'm not talking about, I'm not a expert, I'm not in the NPA, I'm not the Delegate, but as your average person, I can tell that our "Independent sphere of gameplay" was surely not going to work with raiders who know no bounds. If you were delegate would you still "hang your hat and be proud" of our our allies being repeatedly attacked by irresponsible raiders? What would you look like? More importantly, what would we look like? During especially tough times, especially tough measures need to be implemented.
 
Sure, I don't know what I'm not talking about, I'm not a expert, I'm not in the NPA, I'm not the Delegate, but as your average person, I can tell that our "Independent sphere of gameplay" was surely not going to work with raiders who know no bounds. If you were delegate would you still "hang your hat and be proud" of our our allies being repeatedly attacked by irresponsible raiders? What would you look like? More importantly, what would we look like? During especially tough times, especially tough measures need to be implemented.
Well, when I was Delegate, we were on good terms with raiders and still maintained our Independent alignment nonetheless. So yes, actually, I was and would be proud of that.

But, for the sake of clarity, I will note that I haven't been at the helm of the NPA since late-2019 when I served as Minister of Defense under McM in his administration. However, when I was in charge, I'm who was largely responsible for the reinstatement of working relations with The Black Hawks and I appreciated being able to work with our friends over in Raiderdom as needed during and since that time.

Of course, a lot has changed since then. It's 2022 and I don't play anymore, so I'm not quite sure what "tough times" you're referring to. But from what I've been clued in on, gameplay is still alive and well and records are being broken each week in terms of pile counts, update turnouts, and organizations of old being reborn. The Independent alignment of this region predates both the aforementioned reinstatement of working relations and my time as Delegate by several years.

Although, even when I wasn't MoD, I was still a presence on the High Command all throughout 2020 and 2021 in various capacities. So, as someone who was heavily involved and dedicated to the NPA for those years, I like to think that I have an accurate account of the history when I care to remember it.

The first operation we did after announcing this move was a raid. Raiding is still part of our program, it's just that those raids have to be meaningful, not just raiding for raiding's sake.
Don't get me wrong. From an FA standpoint, I'm sure this is seen as fine. I just think it's a major disservice to the organization and to the people who have remained loyal to its continued success and who've helped build it and did so whilst establishing its Independent alignment over the years. But hey, what do I know? Raiding for raiding's sake is a grand ol' time and is great for teambuilding, as I remember it :P

As a NPA General and the NPA soldier with the most ops in TNP's history, I am fully behind the NPA reporting to and supporting the delegate. The only thing I can say is that we've been down this road before and the only reason I'm still here is there will eventually be another delegate and ideaology will return to "normal".
Indeed, you have been down this road before and now you're seeing it again. Best of luck, QD o7
 
Of course, a lot has changed since then. It's 2022 and I don't play anymore, so I'm not quite sure what "tough times" you're referring to. But from what I've been clued in on, gameplay is still alive and well and records are being broken each week in terms of pile counts, update turnouts, and organizations of old being reborn. The Independent alignment of this region predates both the aforementioned reinstatement of working relations and my time as Delegate by several years.
The "tough times" are the sacking of Stargate, anyways, okay, now I might agree, had all of these raiding activities not happened this year, we surely would've still been taking pride in our cherished "Independent Manifesto".
Don't get me wrong. From an FA standpoint, I'm sure this is seen as fine. I just think it's a major disservice to the organization and to the people who have remained loyal to its continued success and who've helped build it and did so whilst establishing its Independent alignment over the years. But hey, what do I know?
Nobody's questioned your experience, or attacked your point of view. And as you literally just admitted in the top quote, unprecedented events have happened lately, and these unprecedented events need a new, working, unprecedented form of governing them. The very fact that you're fanatically defending this with no compromise is upsetting and doubtful in it's own right.
Raiding for raiding's sake is a grand ol' time and is great for teambuilding, as I remember it :P
What are you talking about? "A grand ol' time" at the expense of our allies and native communities, simply to satisfy "teambuilding". :blink:
 
The "tough times" are the sacking of Stargate, anyways, okay, now I might agree, had all of these raiding activities not happened this year, we surely would've still been taking pride in our cherished "Independent Manifesto".
Stargate used to get targeted every once in a while by rag-tag raider groups who either didn't know any better or were naive/foolish enough to think that doing so was a good idea. It's nothing new. It has happened before and will likely continue to happen. It's also not very difficult in the slightest for the NPA to swoop in on a quick liberation or defense of the region, so upholding its end of the Stargate Security Treaty is really no trouble considering that this region has more than enough military prowess and like-minded allies to do so without issue or inconvenience whenever such an instance does occur.

Nobody's questioned your experience, or attacked your point of view. And as you literally just admitted in the top quote, unprecedented events have happened lately, and these unprecedented events need a new, working, unprecedented form of governing them. The very fact that you're fanatically defending this with no compromise is upsetting and doubtful in it's own right.
Again, not unprecedented. But I'll casually remind you that I've been told that I don't know what I'm talking about in this very thread and I've been accused of "abandoning the region" even when the person who made that accusation has easy access to information that would demonstrate to the contrary. But alas, I guess those aren't really attacks or a questioning of where I'm coming from on this, are they? (Sarcasm)

Moreover, on the subject of me providing a compromise: It's uh... not really up to me to do that. I'm not a citizen of this region, nor am I even an NS player in general anymore. So please do pardon me if solving the region's FA isn't on the top of my priority list at the moment.

What are you talking about? "A grand ol' time" at the expense of our allies and native communities, simply to satisfy "teambuilding". :blink:
I wish you were around for the raiding of old, of yesteryear. It was, for a time, quite fun. I haven't done it in a while, but I imagine that it still is. Don't be too alarmed. Teambuilding is great!
 
Stargate used to get targeted every once in a while by rag-tag raider groups who either didn't know any better or were naive/foolish enough to think that doing so was a good idea. It's nothing new. It has happened before and will likely continue to happen. It's also not very difficult in the slightest for the NPA to swoop in on a quick liberation or defense of the region, so upholding its end of the Stargate Security Treaty is really no trouble considering that this region has more than enough military prowess and like-minded allies to do so without issue or inconvenience whenever such an instance does occur.


Again, not unprecedented. But I'll casually remind you that I've been told that I don't know what I'm talking about in this very thread and I've been accused of "abandoning the region" even when the person who made that accusation has easy access to information that would demonstrate to the contrary. But alas, I guess those aren't really attacks or a questioning of where I'm coming from on this, are they? (Sarcasm)

Moreover, on the subject of me providing a compromise: It's uh... not really up to me to do that. I'm not a citizen of this region, nor am I even an NS player in general anymore. So please do pardon me if solving the region's FA isn't on the top of my priority list at the moment.


I wish you were around for the raiding of old, of yesteryear. It was, for a time, quite fun. I haven't done it in a while, but I imagine that it still is. Don't be too alarmed. Teambuilding is great!
This is a lost argument.
 
One more reply before I abandon this hopeless thread.
Moreover, on the subject of me providing a compromise: It's uh... not really up to me to do that. I'm not a citizen of this region, nor am I even an NS player in general anymore. So please do pardon me if solving the region's FA isn't on the top of my priority list at the moment.
"Compromise" as in taking a minute before posting a rant to actually understand other's opinions.
Stargate used to get targeted every once in a while by rag-tag raider groups who either didn't know any better or were naive/foolish enough to think that doing so was a good idea. It's nothing new. It has happened before and will likely continue to happen.
Mistakes done do not need to be repeated.
I wish you were around for the raiding of old, of yesteryear. It was, for a time, quite fun. I haven't done it in a while, but I imagine that it still is. Don't be too alarmed. Teambuilding is great!
I was around "yesteryear". I came here in the first place because my thriving region was raided simply for formerly being a large community and for you're "teambuilding".
 
"Compromise" as in taking a minute before posting a rant to actually understand other's opinions.
Here's something that you didn't know about me: In 2014-2015, I was a defender. I've worked with smaller regions in an effort to establish collective security and to provide for the defense of natives in their home regions. I'm absolutely understanding of why people wouldn't want their communities to be raided, but I don't subscribe to moralism or its arguments as to why raiding shouldn't occur. But, all the while, that isn't what this is about. The Delegate has made it clear that this is not a moral issue, so I'm unsure of why you're eluding to a moralist argument when debating me.

Another thing: I've been a raider/raider-leaning Independent ever since my days as a defender and haven't looked back. Some of my fondest memories of playing the game and engaging with gameplay are from the point of view of a raider and with raiding. Didn't know that disagreeing with an alignment change for a region that I used to be heavily involved with after being tipped off to the recent announcement was going to be considered a "rant," but okay.

Mistakes done do not need to be repeated.
Agreed, but it does happen nonetheless. I rest my case that changing alignments won't solve that and, rather, that it does a major disservice to the organization as a whole.
 
Don't get me wrong. From an FA standpoint, I'm sure this is seen as fine. I just think it's a major disservice to the organization and to the people who have remained loyal to its continued success and who've helped build it and did so whilst establishing its Independent alignment over the years. But hey, what do I know? Raiding for raiding's sake is a grand ol' time and is great for teambuilding, as I remember it :P
Funnily enough, raiding is not the only thing that's good for teambuilding. Who would have thought?
 
The only thing I can say is that we've been down this road before [...] there will eventually be another delegate and ideaology will return to "normal".
This, simply. There are some people here (myself included) who didn't agree with this change (or "new approach" if you want to call it that way), but I believe there's no need to worry because, in the end, this will eventually happen.
 
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