[SC - Passed] Repeal: Commend Solorni

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Repeal: Commend Solorni
Category: Repeal | Target: SC #252
Proposed by: Yokiria | Onsite Topic

Security Council Resolution #252 “Commend Solorni” shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Regretting that this repeal proposal must even exist.

Observing Solorni's sudden resignation of the position of Queen of Balder, a title they held for half a decade, after confessing to heinous crimes against the community they are Commended for serving.

Disgusted by Solorni's gathering of unique support to their causes in Balder being found by subsequent investigation to be from the exploitation of at-risk nations in the region.

Disturbed by the discovery that the reign of Solorni in Balder was built through the exploitation of these at-risk nations.

Noting that the original Commendation references Solorni's contributions to the security and stability of Balder, when Solorni has been exposed as the chief security threat, rather than the chief security administrator they were upheld to be.

Knowing that the original Commendation references Solorni's previously beloved residency in Europeia.

Revealing the fact the subsequent investigation, by which the information in this Repeal has been based upon, is an investigation from the Europeia security team that once trusted Solorni immensely.

Dismissing the original Commendation's claim of Solorni being a world-renowned diplomat as no longer relevant, based on the fact they are being summarily exiled from all the regions they negotiated treaties with during their career.

Saddened that a nation revered for their leadership, community building, and outreach on critical social issues has now been exposed for deep corruption.

Aware of what we must do in response.

Hereby Repeals SC#252 Commend Solorni
Voting Instructions:
  • Vote For if you want the Delegate to vote For the resolution.
  • Vote Against if you want the Delegate to vote Against the resolution.
  • Vote Abstain if you want the Delegate to abstain from voting on this resolution.
  • Vote Present if you are personally abstaining from this vote.

Detailed opinions with your vote are appreciated and encouraged!
 
NOTE: The details of this repeal are sensitive, and discretion should be used in this thread when issuing your comments / vote.

Reserved for IFV
 
Against. I feel that the SC should be a "gameplay IC" institution, and thus we should avoid condemning or commending nations for OOC actions. I would be similarly against Commending someone for being a really great person IRL. We shouldn't be bringing people's personal lives into the game.
 
For

On reflection

Against

On further reflection and weighing up the arguments.

It has been a real headache, this one.

Abstain

WA: Ethnon
 
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Against.

I am conflicted on this matter. I would like to know Balder's position on this resolution.
 
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For

The nature of the offenses blurred the lines between the game and life outside of it, which makes this more than just a case of coming up with in-game justification to respond to matters outside of the game.
 
For
If the offense was unrelated to the game, I would agree with those in opposition, but this was an action against an at-risk member of this community, for whom we all have a responsibility, as adults, to protect. Failing in that responsibility is egregious enough, but, failing as a community, to consider what the further effect of a standing commendation of the (admitted) perpetrator, might have on that at-risk individual, simply adds insult to injury.
 
There was a clear and voluntarily action by Rach targeting an at risk member of this community. This incident harmed a member of this community within the borders of NS. Despite the abuse occurring in an OOC context, Rach no longer represents the standard of a commended player.

This should be an easy Repeal to vote for
 
There was a clear and voluntarily action by Rach targeting an at risk member of this community. This incident harmed a member of this community within the borders of NS. Despite the abuse occurring in an OOC context, Rach no longer represents the standard of a commended player.

This should be an easy Repeal to vote for
It has been made quite clear that those voting against are doing so because they don't agree with the use of OOC actions to the shape the fate of IC WA proposals. Nobody is voting against in defense of Rach's actions. The WA has a very distinct in-game role to play. It is not a moderation tool.
 
It has been made quite clear that those voting against are doing so because they don't agree with the use of OOC actions to the shape the fate of IC WA proposals. Nobody is voting against in defense of Rach's actions. The WA has a very distinct in-game role to play. It is not a moderation tool.
No one voting for it is intended it to be used as a moderation tool. Our reasons have also been clear. The line was blurred by the target player herself, and while some people do not feel there's enough blurring to warrant that as a reason, reasonable people will disagree. Even so, in-game recognition for a disgraced player does not need to be preserved just because the person is disgraced out of the game. The fact is, in the game, she is disgraced and won't be playing or thought well by others, and this monument to her does not need to stand. Many of the words within it ring hollow and are full of irony, a fact this repeal acknowledges. If she continued to play as someone banned from the regions she's banned in after confessing to doing what she did, how could people distinguish between her IC persona and her OOC one? Is that a distinction that would even matter?
 
Siwale, I feel like you're being technical for the sake of being technical. Like Pallaith is, the fact of the matter is, she is disgraced. Why should we allow a monument to her continue to stand?
 
I'm concerned by both the text of this resolution and the precedent it would set.

Solorni admitted that she engaged in some behavior that was wrong. She should not have done what she did, which she acknowledges, and she is leaving the game as a result. However, it is not permitted to author a WA resolution about the behavior that she engaged in, so the author has taken some creative liberties to get around that rule.

The resolution, accuses Solorni of a) exploiting "at risk" nations, b) that her tenure in Balder was built on such exploitations, c) that Solorni represents a security threat to Balder, and d) that Solorni has been "summarily exiled" from numerous regions.

All of these are overstatements and exaggerations at best, and malicious distortions at worst. The referenced statement from Europeia says that they received allegations that Solorni "initiated strategic relationships to manipulate players and secure their loyalty", but not that such allegations were proven. Moreover, nowhere does Europeia assert that the allegations are that Solorni primarily targeted "at risk" players - merely that she "seemingly initiated strategic relationships to manipulate players and secure their loyalty". There's another word for that - politics. Europeia also does not allege that manipulating people is Solorni's sole claim on power, nor that that is the source of her rise in Balder. The author's decision to make that claim themselves is deeply troubling; female players are frequently accused of having no actual skills but relying on feminine wiles to get ahead.

Finally, Solorni was banned at her own request, as part of her resignation from the game. It's disingenuous to describe that as a summary exile; she would not be the first person to find it easier to remain gone if she were banned.

I have no wish to minimize what Solorni did. But I am concerned about the mob mentality that is leading to stripping away the legitimacy of everything she did, and earned, and was, because of a fuck-up. And I am also concerned about the language used in this specific proposal to repeal her commendation, and how easily it slides between fact and fiction to try to make its case.
 
Those at risk nations are referring to the minors that were abused. The people behind these nations could potentially lack judgement or maturity that was expected of Rach.

Unfortunately you can't directly cite what Rach did due to SC rules, however Rach abused NS to get these connections which then led to the abuse of aforementioned 'at-risk' nations. This abuse could be potentially be linked to strategic planning to gain power or control over people.

Yes Rach acknowledged they were wrong, however they had to, at least to some extent, knew what they were doing and proceeded to do so anyway.

Rach contributed to this community but it is hard to defend any part of those contributions when an event like this occurs. This isn't a matter of if this or another repeal will pass, it's a matter of when, and what side you want to be on when it does.

Edit - I'm going to lose my mind if my phone auto corrects ''nations" to "nation's" again
 
Against
EDIT: After further consideration. Present
 
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Rach admitted to sexting with one minor - that's it. Allegations about her abusing multiple minors are fabricated. Euro doesn't claim she did that.

Facts matter and getting this right matters. Like I said, she fucked up. But the vitriol and speculation is bordering on farcical.
 
I'm concerned by both the text of this resolution and the precedent it would set.

Solorni admitted that she engaged in some behavior that was wrong. She should not have done what she did, which she acknowledges, and she is leaving the game as a result. However, it is not permitted to author a WA resolution about the behavior that she engaged in, so the author has taken some creative liberties to get around that rule.

The resolution, accuses Solorni of a) exploiting "at risk" nations, b) that her tenure in Balder was built on such exploitations, c) that Solorni represents a security threat to Balder, and d) that Solorni has been "summarily exiled" from numerous regions.

All of these are overstatements and exaggerations at best, and malicious distortions at worst. The referenced statement from Europeia says that they received allegations that Solorni "initiated strategic relationships to manipulate players and secure their loyalty", but not that such allegations were proven. Moreover, nowhere does Europeia assert that the allegations are that Solorni primarily targeted "at risk" players - merely that she "seemingly initiated strategic relationships to manipulate players and secure their loyalty". There's another word for that - politics. Europeia also does not allege that manipulating people is Solorni's sole claim on power, nor that that is the source of her rise in Balder. The author's decision to make that claim themselves is deeply troubling; female players are frequently accused of having no actual skills but relying on feminine wiles to get ahead.

Finally, Solorni was banned at her own request, as part of her resignation from the game. It's disingenuous to describe that as a summary exile; she would not be the first person to find it easier to remain gone if she were banned.

I have no wish to minimize what Solorni did. But I am concerned about the mob mentality that is leading to stripping away the legitimacy of everything she did, and earned, and was, because of a fuck-up. And I am also concerned about the language used in this specific proposal to repeal her commendation, and how easily it slides between fact and fiction to try to make its case.

Thank you for explaining your vote at length. I do appreciate this because it shows that your reading of the proposal was very different from my own. Ultimately people are going to believe what they're going to believe, and this resolution may very well give some people the wrong idea. I don't think I agree that those points are very exaggerated, they are quite true in many respects, and because of my own experience and knowledge I had a sense for the degree to which they were true or not. Many people would not have the same sense. It's fair to say then that that language could have been further adjusted. The result of this is that she will be summarily banned from many regions, and exiled from the community. The "mob" mentality you described is actually evidence of this fact.

Manipulation is something used in politics. My reading of the announcement, and the only way to understand it as something that would concern administration, is that the manipulation existed outside the bounds of the game, and was therefore not just "political" in nature. Because those manipulation nevertheless benefited her politically, that is where the obvious IC/OOC line was crossed and this becomes fair game, as an in-game matter. That is where I am principally staking my support for the repeal.

Those at risk nations are referring to the minors that were abused. The people behind these nations could potentially lack judgement or maturity that was expected of Rach.

Unfortunately you can't directly cite what Rach did due to SC rules, however Rach abused NS to get these connections which then led to the abuse of aforementioned 'at-risk' nations. This abuse could be potentially be linked to strategic planning to gain power or control over people.

Yes Rach acknowledged they were wrong, however they had to, at least to some extent, knew what they were doing and proceeded to do so anyway.

Rach contributed to this community but it is hard to defend any part of those contributions when an event like this occurs. This isn't a matter of if this or another repeal will pass, it's a matter of when, and what side you want to be on when it does.

Edit - I'm going to lose my mind if my phone auto corrects ''nations" to "nation's" again

There's a very good reason that you can't use OOC stuff in these resolutions. I do not believe that it is unfortunate this is a rule, nor do I believe that OOC actions require a resolution like this. In this regard I agree wholeheartedly with SillyString, we shouldn't start to think that we must go above and beyond administrative consequences, such as drafting condemnations. This situation though is one I distinguish from that, which is why I am supporting it.

Tlomz is also right that it's happening with our without us. That also is not necessarily a compelling reason on its own for us to take action, and I appreciate that TNP is independent in this way as well, and does not do the popular or expected thing for the sake of it. I do not believe that the wider gaming community is wrong about this, however. This time it is going to happen, I believe it should happen, and I do not think we should stand in the way of it for a principle I do not believe is even at stake here. We do not have to buck the "mob" for the sake of it just as we do not have to abide by it just because they make some noise. We should always do what should be done in any given situation. We're not all in agreement here, and that's fine.

Rach admitted to sexting with one minor - that's it. Allegations about her abusing multiple minors are fabricated. Euro doesn't claim she did that.

Facts matter and getting this right matters. Like I said, she fucked up. But the vitriol and speculation is bordering on farcical.

Added this in during my post. I'm not sure if Tlomz did a bad job of explaining this, or if he actually thinks this, but I do not believe this either. It seemed clear from my reading the abuse was strictly manipulation and not of the same nature as what she confessed to doing. I don't believe this is as misunderstood in TNP as it may be in other places, but I wanted to make it clear that I don't subscribe to this notion, nor do I believe it has to be true for a reasonable person to nevertheless decide the other matters administration brought up are compelling. The report is why I am firmly in support of this repeal. The problem with the repeal having to avoid OOC descriptions is that it puts two very different offenses in the same bucket, and going back to my earlier point about SillyString observing misleading conclusions coming out of the resolution, this combining language is probably why some may erroneously believe there's multiple victims of the kind Solorni confessed to. Again, I really appreciate SillyString laying it out the way she did, there was definitely more nuance that while not convincing enough for me, could be helpful in guiding others on this matter.
 
As a casual player, I don't normally pay close attention to this kind of stuff, so I can only rely on what's been said on this thread and the main one on the NS Forum.

Having gone through these threads, I have decided to vote FOR this repeal, but I would be against any subsequent condemnation. The target player did nothing wrong IC, and a condemnation on OOC grounds would make absolutely no sense. But continuing to commend a player knowing full well what she did OOC is just wrong. So let's repeal this and let the NS mods and law enforcement deal with the rest. Like the recently repealed SC#1 Condemn Macedon, this IC commendation is not going to be erased from the annals of NS history either. It would be the equivalent of placing Cecil Rhodes' statue literally "behind bars" without demolishing it.
 
Against.

While the outside actions had some affect on in game activity, we should not be sucked into the same trap. We must keep the line clear.
 
Probably need to post your WA nation and be a resident...
 
@St George, next time you want to call a new community member a "puppet" for visiting our forums for the first time and being brave enough to post their opinion on a controversial WA resolution, at least spend the 2 seconds to search for their nation. I will not tolerate such outright disrespect towards a new member looking to get involved.
 
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Frankly @Siwale the only way you'd know if I did that or not is by looking at the edit logs and abusing any mod power you have. So before you call me out back the fuck up dude.
 
@St George, as meticulous as I can be, I do not search through forum post edit history. I saw your original post, just as others watching this controversial thread likely did as well. You also posted it on a public NSGP discord channel. Kind of hard to miss.
 
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