Verifiable Residency Requirement

I wanted to float an alternative mechanism to the approach GBM proposed, which is at vote.

Why can't we adopt a durational residency requirement? And I don't mean a short period before elections begin.

I've done some testing, and it is possible, using in-game tools to verify movement of nations, or more accuracy, the absence of movement of nations used by forum members to claim membership in the Regional Assembly and the right to vote.

From the testing that I did, WA membership or changes in WA membership does not appear to be tracked in the reports tools of nations one might put in the dossier tool, but movement between regions is trackable.

It would require the Speaker to set up a dossier that includes all nations used by RA members and applicants, and then generate a report. My testing shows that this can be set for at least 100 days (2400) hours, and probably longer, but not before 1 April 2008.

If the goal is to limit voting for Delegate to committed residents of TNP, then the use of these devices is a verifiable way of establishing a lengthy period of resience using in game tools.

I'm not exactly sure how this would need to be worded, and what amendments would be needed to Law 28 and the COnstitution, but I want to see if this could work as a valid alternative that respects the language in the Bill of Rights on the one hand (especially those concerning the equal treatment of the right to vote, and the freedom of nations with respect to WA membership), and provide protection from the supposed lack of commitment to TNP that GBM raised as a basis for her proposal.

Thoughts anyone?

Grosseschnauzer:

I wanted to float an alternative mechanism to the approach GBM proposed, which is at vote.

Why can't we adopt a durational residency requirement? And I don't mean a short period before elections begin.

I've done some testing, and it is possible, using in-game tools to verify movement of nations, or more accuracy, the absence of movement of nations used by forum members to claim membership in the Regional Assembly and the right to vote.

From the testing that I did, WA membership or changes in WA membership does not appear to be tracked in the reports tools of nations one might put in the dossier tool, but movement between regions is trackable.

It would require the Speaker to set up a dossier that includes all nations used by RA members and applicants, and then generate a report. My testing shows that this can be set for at least 100 days (2400) hours, and probably longer, but not before 1 April 2008.

If the goal is to limit voting for Delegate to committed residents of TNP, then the use of these devices is a verifiable way of establishing a lengthy period of resience using in game tools.

I'm not exactly sure how this would need to be worded, and what amendments would be needed to Law 28 and the COnstitution, but I want to see if this could work as a valid alternative that respects the language in the Bill of Rights on the one hand (especially those concerning the equal treatment of the right to vote, and the freedom of nations with respect to WA membership), and provide protection from the supposed lack of commitment to TNP that GBM raised as a basis for her proposal.

Thoughts anyone?

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me thinks this needs a new thread

Me too but I like your Idea Grosseschnauzer and if that can be realise then I will vote NAY on the law GBM.

Thread spilt as requested.

I'm listening - this does sound like a decent idea so far

sounds good to me

While I do graciously accept any responsibility granted to me by the RA, I must say that if I were to track every member or nation deemed "suspicious" in addition to my duties of moderating debates, overseeing votes, counting the votes, questioning applicants, forwarding applicants to the mods, and maintaining the activity of every RA member; I'd get nothing done.

This proposal only outlines an underlying problem, and that is the complete lack of a serious security service in this region. We're running on volunteers, what we need is real legislative action ensuring that there is an indepedent non-political office that can track and protect us from those who wish the region harm.

Horrible idea. New members will essentially be totally alienated from all off site decisions which thus makes them completely uninvolved in all on site delegate choices.

Powder keg for a revolution movement if I've ever seen one.

@ Sniffles:
As things are currently structured, the SPeaker has to keep track of each RA member's TNP nation and verify that that nation is in TNP and has not CTE'd at least once every month.

This idea I've laid out only builds upon the pre-existing requirement in Laqw 28, and actually simplifies the mechanics. The Dossier tool allows one to add any nation to the Dossier file listing in-game; the report function is almatically generated (as one can set the number of hours and have a report generated. It's easy enough to scan the resulting list and notice if any nations on the kist has left TNP. (Don't foprget I'm quite aware of the recordkeeping associated with Law 28, as I was left with the responsibility to set the thing up. I think the description of the Speaker's other duties overstates any additional work involves.

This is not a security issue; it has no more to do with security than GBM's proposal does. The distinction is, in my personal opinion as a member of the RA, that this would not run afoul of the Bil of Rights as GBM's proposal does. In addition, Law 28 already permits the Speaker to appoint a deputy to assist with Law 28 responsibilities, and this idea could easily be one of those.

@ BW -- I haven't reached any conclusion as to whether this should be applied to just voting for Delegate/Vice Delegate, or to all elections in which RA members cast votes. The idea I raise is something that, in the past, was not even possible -- only the changes made by Max that we learned of on April 1st make this even feasible and easy to implement.

I am interested in hearing from GBM and others who advocated the proposed RA requirement as to how this alternative would or would not meet their concerns.

No offense, but if this is all to prevent some shadowy outside group from packing the RA full of puppets to get their own people elected, a robust counterintelligence program spearheaded by the NPIA would be a better prevention method.

All these residency requirements will do is make it harder for average nations to join up, and turns TNP in on itself, leading to stagnation. Frankly, any region that seriously wants to influence our internal politics will simply put up with these restrictions while finding loopholes, so all this will do is keep out the newbies who don't want to bother with red tape when they can just join a region with less restrictive policies.

In other words, these various plans (all of them) create a host of new problems while doing little to solve the thing they are meant to.

Outer Kharkistania:

No offense, but if this is all to prevent some shadowy outside group from packing the RA full of puppets to get their own people elected, a robust counterintelligence program spearheaded by the NPIA would be a better prevention method.

All these residency requirements will do is make it harder for average nations to join up, and turns TNP in on itself, leading to stagnation. Frankly, any region that seriously wants to influence our internal politics will simply put up with these restrictions while finding loopholes, so all this will do is keep out the newbies who don't want to bother with red tape when they can just join a region with less restrictive policies.

In other words, these various plans (all of them) create a host of new problems while doing little to solve the thing they are meant to.

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agreed

Well before we criticise Grosse's idea I'd like to see it fleshed out legislative wise before it's nitpicked prematurely

*raises a brow* Is that not the point of these discussions, Representative? To determine the validity of these ideas and to gauge interest? Then the lawmaker could design the legislation based on the so-called "nitpicks".


Her Majesty, Queen Mab, has expressed her distaste for this piece of proposed legislation and echoes the concerns and points of the representative from Outer Kharkistania.

No offense, but if this is all to prevent some shadowy outside group from packing the RA full of puppets to get their own people elected, a robust counterintelligence program spearheaded by the NPIA would be a better prevention method.

All these residency requirements will do is make it harder for average nations to join up, and turns TNP in on itself, leading to stagnation. Frankly, any region that seriously wants to influence our internal politics will simply put up with these restrictions while finding loopholes, so all this will do is keep out the newbies who don't want to bother with red tape when they can just join a region with less restrictive policies.

In other words, these various plans (all of them) create a host of new problems while doing little to solve the thing they are meant to

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Then we just need to do NOTHING. FEAR FEAR FEAR, It's the word I heard all the time. Fear of stagnation, Fear of invasion, Fear of treason and so on. You all fear and because of this, you made stagnate TNP.

It's not because someone can find loophole that we cannot make this law possible. We all know that loophole can be find in many law., did this stop us to do it? no. We need to find a middle place between the freedom of citizen and the duty of this region.

And many region have citizenship requirement well some of them have find it impossible to continue, most of them have find the way for this program to become great.

And for the fear of the new member red tape problem. IF the responsable of Immigration do his job, then you will not have this. I have never been on a Feeder Region before TNP, I go directly in userite region. My experience told me that immigration responsability is always the center of the problem.

Well, if I (the responsible Immigration Official you mentioned) had more people recruiting other than myself, GBM, and one or two others, perhaps we might get somewhere.

Alas, we cannot keep up with the growth of the region, and nobody else wants to help out with the job.

Add to that the fact that all attempts to start some sort of real dialog on the RMB have failed and frankly I'm not surprised that more people aren't joining in some huge droves.

Also, I'd like to point out that I did not mention the word "fear" once in my view on the situation. I personally do not believe the region to be in any real danger of invasion or infiltration at the moment- the most major "threat" we face at the moment is nothing more than a mild annoyance.

Fearmongering is not a good policy, and I frankly believe that we need nothing more than a more active NPIA to investigate the suspicious nations and occurances that occasionally show up in greater depth.

I agree with Outer Kharkistania. This legislation, along with anything along similar lines, would essentially be killing the activity of the region. This region is already considered to be very bad with the 'Old Guard' idea and a law of this sort would hinder any new blood from entering the RA, effectively sealing the Old Guard even more permanently in their places.

*OLD GUARD* There again. This region is not considered bad because of this but because is a mess, where no one get along. That is the view of the other world.

For the Immigration, then that is another subject.

Add to that the fact that all attempts to start some sort of real dialog on the RMB have failed and frankly I'm not surprised that more people aren't joining in some huge droves.

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That is the problem of many userite and Feeder Region, it's not new.

You dont need to say the world fear to act like someone who is in fear. You are not the only one that I doing that. I dont speak many time on this forum but I have see many time peope fall on the subject of lack of security, fear of invasion and so on. It's sure that the history of TNP is not helping, and I understand but that must stop.

Grosseschnauzer have pointed many time that some law proposal contradict the liberty of the people, He has pointed many time that some of the problem you have will not have happen with the old Constitution. Now he is searching for a middle place between the right of the people and the duty of this government, you just critize the fact that is not helped the new member *Cough*

The problem that you have is not with the new member but with the ancient one, And you want my opinion about the new member, I am myself one. It's not difficutl at all and I am sure I will have get along with the Grosseschnauzer idea either. Dont assume, Make it possible and if that not work, you will have always the time to change it. It's call take a risk to gain more.

Grand Admiral:

I agree with Outer Kharkistania. This legislation, along with anything along similar lines, would essentially be killing the activity of the region. This region is already considered to be very bad with the 'Old Guard' idea and a law of this sort would hinder any new blood from entering the RA, effectively sealing the Old Guard even more permanently in their places.

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That is also true.

The idea of an 'Old Guard' as being some kind of evil thing is a straw dog argument at best and a political propaganda tool often used by power seekers at worst. Let me explain.

There will always be long lived individuals who will always reside primarily in TNP. Those are the nations that are always here and are primarily responsible for removing rogue delegates and the regimes that support rogues. The so-called 'Old Guard' are the individuals who are extremely persistent and are the great survivors who always seem to come to the rescue of the region. The not-so-evident (to most) irony is that 'The Old Guard' exists whether or not members of such and alleged group are in control. They are just the nation who call TNP home and don't like it when foreign invaders and dictators waltz in and run amok.

No, were such a group to become an elitists element that never ceded power, then, yes, it would be a problem. The major problem and the root of all the chronic ills that afflict TNP seem to arise when the alleged 'Old Guard' passes on power to 'new blood'. If conservatism breads radicalism, then TNP must be the most conservative region of all time. The problem is that most of our ills arise externally to the region and are not problems of the home grown variety.

I do not defend elitism, but I do have to say that democracies like ours tend to be tolerant to the point that we tend to ignore or step right into our own demise like stepping in a dog turn in the park. Pure democracy ultimately ends up as either total disorder or a mob scene that decays into a situation that foreign elements have successfully exploited from day one. A representative constitutional republic tends to be more stable and lasting. It always seems that things hum along just fine until we start diddling with the Constitution. Remember how we just let L&C essentially rewrite the Constitution in order to make himself a dictator?

We need a new mechanism for reining in potential rogue delegates and that requires the existence of a block of nations willing to do the actual dirty work.

TNP Old Guard = US Liberal

Blah, blah, blah, evil Liberals...
Blah, blah, blah, elitest Old Guard...

I'm on a deadline, and won't have time to think about drafting any language for another week to 10 days.

My problem with GBM's proposal os that it ran contrary to the principle of the voluntary nature of participation in the WA in terms of participation in the government, including the right of a nation to endorse or not endorse another nation.

With that in mine, in running my test of the report function in Nationstates, I noticed that when a nation is revived, and then applies for WA membership that action is pticked up. What isn't clear is whether that application to join the WA is picked up at other times, or when a nation resigns from the WA.

I'd still like to hear from GBM or her supporters of what they hoped to accomplish with that proposals, and whether there's anything that might be accomplished as an alternative using some form a durational residency requirement in lieu of the GBM proposal.

You will only see the happenings for the nation in the report when they appear on the nations page. this list is only 10 happenings long so once it disappears of this list you will not get the info. Any nation with knowledge of this can simply hide any happening by changing flags ect as this is reported in the happenings of the nation.

redblack, the example I cited had taken place more than 10 days prior, so I'm not sure your comment is accurate.

Many nations do not have frequent happenings, and their 10 happenings might cover a period going as far back as months ago.

Some nations however do things like answer 2 issues a day, making their 10 happenings used up in 5 days. No record beyond that exists.

Actually I was just trying to point out that it is easy to hide your nations happenings from a report by changing the motto, currency, national animal & flag as they all appear on the happening. Therefore if a nation CTE'd & was revised they can easily hide the fact it has happened.

Eluvatar:

Many nations do not have frequent happenings, and their 10 happenings might cover a period going as far back as months ago.

Some nations however do things like answer 2 issues a day, making their 10 happenings used up in 5 days. No record beyond that exists.

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Doesn't an RSS feed work around that?

If you watch it frequently enough.

Unfortunately someone who wants to avoid you seeing can induce 10 events at once and foil your intent.

EDIT: Although at that point, if they are out of the region for such a short period of time, I don't think it really matters.

Have any of you even tried the reports setting and change it from the default?

Also, the reports tool is passed on the nations in your dossier tool, among other things. Both of those seem to go around the last ten events function. I could be wrong, but I've not specifically tested it. I was surprised to find one of the nations I tested with had CTE's, then revived and refounded, and then the feed also picked up the application to join the WA, and its acceptance into the WA/

As I indicated before it might be useful for others to test those two in-gane tools (reports and dossier) and adjust the report tool to 2400 or 4800 hours, and see what happens.