TNP Civil Code Omnibus Law

Romanoffia

Garde à l'eau!
Final edition of the bill is at the bottom of this post.

The TNP Legal Code shall be amended so as to establish and develop a Civil Code as per the provision of The Constitution of The North Pacific which states:

Article 5. The Court

1. The Court will try all criminal and civil cases, resolve conflicts or ambiguities in the law, and review the constitutionality of laws or legality of government policies by request of an affected party.
2. The Court will consist of at least three Justices, who will select a Chief Justice among themselves.
3. The Chief Justice will administer the rules of the Court. Where no rules exist, the Chief Justice may use their discretion.
4. The official opinion of the Court in any trial or review will be binding on all Government bodies and officials.
5. Justices will be elected by the Regional Assembly by a plurality vote every four months.


The following shall be added to the TNP Legal Code:


Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

2. Civil Law shall be defined as all offenses in The North Pacific Civil Code that are between individuals, nations, entities that are not considered Criminal under The North Pacific Criminal Code in which any individual, nation or entity has sustained real damages.

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply, in which case the offending party shall be considered in Contempt of Court.

5. Private statements between individuals not intended for public consumption shall not be considered Defamation per se. Publication of private communications not intended for public consumption shall be considered an act of Defamation per se unless all parties to such communication, intended or otherwise affirm permission to make such communications public.

6 5. Civil Code shall be amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.

Section 1.0: Contempt of Court

1. “Civil Contempt” shall be defined as the failure to perform an act that is ordered by a court as a means to enforce the rights of individuals or to secure remedies for parties in a civil action.

2. “Direct Contempt” shall be defined as an act that occurs in the presence of the court and is intended to embarrass or engender disrespect for the court.

Section 1.1: Defamation


1. “Defamation, per se” is defined as making false statements involving Actual Malice and Negligence which consist of:

(a). An accusation of one having committed a criminal offense

(b). Tends to impeach a person’s reputation

(c). Otherwise tends to subject one to ridicule, contempt, or disgrace

2. Neutral Report Privilege shall be enforced and exempting those individuals, nations or entities making statements that are considered as “Opinion” and “Fair Comment Privileges” which consist of True and non-defamatory statements and which are accurately and disinterestedly reported.



Notes:

This law would define "Defamation", per se in detail; establish a defense against charges of Defamation; Exempt statements that were made in Good Faith or are of factual in nature (this protects news publications in TNP and anyone repeating a statement of fact); and defines Defamation as consisting only of statements that involve Actual Malice and Negligence.

The law is narrowly written so as to clearly define Defamation per se and leave little question as to what of what is strictly Defamation.


The addition to the Legal Code shall only consist of the following:


Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

2. Civil Law shall be defined as all offenses in The North Pacific Civil Code that are between individuals, nations, entities that are not considered Criminal under The North Pacific Criminal Code in which any individual, nation or entity has sustained real damages.

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.

5. Civil Code shall be amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.


OK, here's the final edition of the bill:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil offenses shall be defined as either misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between citizens where the plaintiff(s) have sustained actual damages. Specific civil offenses shall be listed in this chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Procedure

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.

Section 1.4 - Civil Code

5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.

[edited to reflect and document changes]
 
I still think the best solution is to eliminate civil trials altogether. However, if that approach fails, I'm not quite as strongly opposed to this as I expected to be. I do, however, have quite a number of suggestions I would like to make before I would consider this a suitable addition to the legal code. I'll detail those suggestions when I have more time.
 
I am in support of this. It is odd if there is absolutely no other way to settle civil cases.
 
I'm in favor of passing a bill of this nature. The specifics will have to be worked out. The defamation piece needs some more work, especially regarding private conversations.

And is contempt here a civil violation or a criminal one? What penalties can be imposed for contempt?
 
Ator People:
I'm in favor of passing a bill of this nature. The specifics will have to be worked out. The defamation piece needs some more work, especially regarding private conversations.

And is contempt here a civil violation or a criminal one? What penalties can be imposed for contempt?
That's an interesting question - Contempt of Court being a civil or criminal issue.

In this instance as proposed in the law itself would technically be a civil offense as the law itself establishes a specific civil law and creates an actual civil code. That said, refusing to comply with a civil judgment would be a civil offense. Refusing to comply with a criminal judgment would only compound the criminal offense and be a criminal act in theory. But that brings up an interesting point that could be addressed in the criminal code as a criminal offense should a law be added to that effect.

Contempt of court in the context of TNP could nominally be punished by 'removal' of the offending participant from a court proceeding if they are disruptive, etc.,,,

Criminal Contempt is very specific in nature and usually only applies to criminal proceedings but could actually be applied in a civil matter.


Here is some relevant definitions that are fairly common in most legal systems as to what is considered 'Criminal contempt':

Criminal contempt:

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), each of the following is criminal contempt:

(1) Willful behavior committed during the sitting of a court and directly tending to interrupt its proceedings.

(2) Willful behavior committed during the sitting of a court in its immediate view and presence and directly tending to impair the respect due its authority.

(3) Willful disobedience of, resistance to, or interference with a court's lawful process, order,directive, or instruction or its execution.

(4) Willful refusal to be sworn or affirmed as a witness, or, when so sworn or affirmed, willful refusal to answer any legal and proper question when the refusal is not legally justified.

(5) Willful publication of a report of the proceedings in a court that is grossly inaccurate and presents a clear and present danger of imminent and serious threat to the administration of justice, made with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false. No person, however, may be punished for publishing a truthful report of proceedings in a court.

(6) Willful or grossly negligent failure by an officer of the court to perform his duties in an official transaction.

(7) Willful or grossly negligent failure to comply with schedules and practices of the court resulting in substantial interference with the business of the court.

(8) Willful refusal to testify or produce other information upon the order of a judge acting pursuant to Article 61 of Chapter 15A, Granting of Immunity to Witnesses.

(9) Willful communication with a juror in an improper attempt to influence his deliberations.

(9a) Willful refusal by a defendant to comply with a condition of probation.

(10) Any other act or omission specified elsewhere in the General Statutes of North Carolina as grounds for criminal contempt.

The grounds for criminal contempt specified here are exclusive, regardless of any other grounds for criminal contempt which existed at common law.

(b) No person may beheld in contempt under this section on the basis of the content of any broadcast, publication, or other communication unless it presents a clear and present danger of an imminent and serious threat to the administration of criminal justice.

(c) Court orders prohibiting publication or broadcast of reports of open court proceedings or reports of public records banned.


Normally, as precedent may dictate, 'contempt of court' is usually handled in TNP as a matter of moderation for inappropriate behavior and applied by the presiding justice in a particular case. Refusing to comply with a TNP Court decision is generally considered some kind of offense which usually results in affecting the sentence delivered upon a conviction despite the fact that we don't have any laws, per se, that define refusal to comply as a criminal offense. Contempt of Court is a fairly obvious thing to determine even without a specific law to do it and is usually handled as a matter of court rules established by the court at the time.

That said, four our purposes, we don't really need to or even want to go into writing up laws that are unnecessarily complex for our purposes, but such laws need to specific enough and compact enough so as not to become voluminous.

The actual law concerning "Defamation per se" that I propose is a standard definition boiled down to basic common denominators so that it specifically applies to the narrow actions that can be committed in the context of RP in TNP. I looked over actual contempt and defamations laws in the legal codes of several US States, Canadian Provinces, UK and Australia, as well as other nations in Europe, etc.,,, and some of those Defamation per se laws can be several hundred pages long and containing an obscene level of minutiae so as to confound any reasonable mind (in some countries like Italy, simply criticizing a Judge or expression any disagreement with a court decision constitutes defamation or contempt of court - even if one is just some schmuck on the street who utters 'I think the court handed down a bad decision').

Usually, legal coded state a maximum and minimum penalty range for a given offense (which we don't really do in TNP but might look into) which allows a Judge to impose a sentence within that range or not at all (by commuting a sentence, etc.) as mitigating circumstances may require (this latter point is generally what we do in TNP).

What we don't want to have happen is everyone and anyone suing civilly or criminally for frivolous occurrences like "so-and-so called be a bastards" or other forms of having one's feelings hurt. That accounts for the narrowness of the law I propose.

I suppose, though, that as a penalty for certain criminal or civil offenses could be punished by increasing the 'warn level' for a period of time for the offender so that repeated offenses could accumulate into a forum ban. For instance, contempt of court or a civil offense could be punished by upping someone's 'warn level' by a certain percent for a given period of time and consecutively if multiple offenses are committed, or putting an offender into the dreaded 'moderated posting queue' category.

There are TOS violations that involve defamation, harassment, etc., if it is done in a manner that is not legitimate RP and is an actual personal attack on the real person and not the persona in game.

But a Defamation per se law as a civil offense or even criminal offense (if we want to simply combine all offenses as 'criminal') would cut out a lot of crap for people claiming slander and libel as 'fraud' which they are not.

Also, the argument that 'suites at equity' are impossible to punish is a straw man considering that 'fraud' in and of itself is by definition a matter of equity as are all other offenses when you get down to it. The only difference is that a criminal penalty is a matter of retribution on behalf of the collective whole (the "People") as opposed to a civil offense being a matter of remuneration or equalization on the part of an individual.

I tend to take an objectivist view on government and law - the purpose of government is to protect, preserve and promote the rights of the individual and that laws must objectively serve this end; and that which is a crime for the individual is also a crime for the 'collective' or 'state' as it were.

Statements of fact or opinion (unless one claims that opinion to be a fact) are not defamatory because one is ultimately responsible for one's own actions and to suppress statements of fact as 'defamation' serves only to deny personal responsibility on one part and deny the right of free speech on the other.
 
Now I know I'm new here, but I can't truck with the concept of civil offenses in a government like this. People should be able to resolve disputes without having to involve the courts. The more litigious a culture becomes, the more previously understood and protected free speech becomes restricted, not by law but by fear of offending someone.

When the first question we ask about our speech before we post is "Will a judge think this is ok?" we're going in the wrong direction.

In any government, a litigious culture is a problem, but even then there are usually a million or hundreds of millions of people, so it is in some ways worth the risk(as a safeguard against discrimination, for instance). Here, we're dealing with many fewer people, and with clearly defined Criminal Laws. I don't see a need to add to the criminal code in such a way.

People having a dispute should not have legal recourse over a simple difference of opinion(which, often, an accusation of defamation would be), as that's a misuse of the justice system. They ought to work that crap out themselves.

I could at the very least see some benefit to the contempt laws though... Skirting around criminal proceedings by not cooperating is a problem that needs addressing.
 
Treize_Dreizehn:
Now I know I'm new here, but I can't truck with the concept of civil offenses in a government like this. People should be able to resolve disputes without having to involve the courts. The more litigious a culture becomes, the more previously understood and protected free speech becomes restricted, not by law but by fear of offending someone.

When the first question we ask about our speech before we post is "Will a judge think this is ok?" we're going in the wrong direction.

In any government, a litigious culture is a problem, but even then there are usually a million or hundreds of millions of people, so it is in some ways worth the risk(as a safeguard against discrimination, for instance). Here, we're dealing with many fewer people, and with clearly defined Criminal Laws. I don't see a need to add to the criminal code in such a way.

People having a dispute should not have legal recourse over a simple difference of opinion(which, often, an accusation of defamation would be), as that's a misuse of the justice system. They ought to work that crap out themselves.

I could at the very least see some benefit to the contempt laws though... Skirting around criminal proceedings by not cooperating is a problem that needs addressing.
A litigious culture is a problem. On that everyone can agree. Simple differences of opinions never end up as a court case. But, by the same token, we have had over the years the occasional problem where someone literally hurls a false accusation that in terms of game-play is literally slander/libel/defamation, and in the past they have always gotten away with it.

Right now, in terms of conduct, you can literally accuse someone of treason or otherwise create any manner of fabrication one desires with the intent of impugning another RP character's reputation and generally get away with it. Why? Because Defamation/Slander/Libel is not specifically covered in TNP legal code and there for Defamation per se is an entirely legal action or the most part. In the past, simple acts of Defamation have generally been entirely dismissed or otherwise rejected by the court unless it was part of a larger 'Fraud' charge but never as a stand alone charge.

The irony is that Defamation per se could be considered a violation of rights if it diminishes or limits the any one of rights detailed in the Bill of Rights or an implied right not specifically listed and there would be no means to rectify or adjudicate such a transgression.

For instance, say you were to make a statement of pure opinion that offended someone. Then say that someone who was offended went on a campaign to discredit you by accusing you of all manner of wrong doing and doing so to the point that people believed their fabrications as fact. Then say it resulted in you being ostracized unjustly and driven from the region. Have not your rights been violated in a sweeping fashion?

And this is why we need a law that covers Defamation per se. We don't have but a handful of laws in TNP, most of them fairly objective in nature, but in terms of RP, the most objective law we could have is one that protects individuals from damage due to false statements or the harassment that might result for false statements delivered through malice or negligence.

The TNP Bill of Rights says in Article 2:

2. Each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region.

"And shall be encouraged by the governmental authorities of the region" is a clear statement of the objective nature of our laws. "Shall not be infringed" is the primary root of the objective natures of laws, objective laws being laws that protect the individual's (or nation's) right to be left alone to exercise its rights without infringement from the government or individuals or collectives of individuals that result in denying a nation or individual its right to exist unmolested except when that nation or individual commits an act of initiating aggression.

By the same token, an individual or nation has the right to defend itself from aggression and Defamation per se is an act of aggression which demands a nation or individual defends itself. It is better that a nation of individual be given a proper tool for defense against such an act of aggression rather than to encourage response in kind.

I have said that an honest man has no defense against liars and thieves. That is, if there are no proper tools available for that defense which do not require the victim to respond in kind which would result in anarchy of the worst kind.
 
For instance, say you were to make a statement of pure opinion that offended someone. Then say that someone who was offended went on a campaign to discredit you by accusing you of all manner of wrong doing and doing so to the point that people believed their fabrications as fact. Then say it resulted in you being ostracized unjustly and driven from the region. Have not your rights been violated in a sweeping fashion?

Perhaps this is just my own perspective, but I revel in being accused of terrible things.

That said, if we accept the rest of your premise, we're just trading one freedom(expression) for another(freedom from wrongful persecution). There's no virtue to that exchange, and I'd offer that expression is a more important freedom.

In normal tort law, civil cases are specifically seeking monetary redress not to preserve the "rights" of people to avoid ostracism... but rather to specifically deal with the damages that such actions have caused. If by some measure this is found to be needed, it MUST be coupled with the requirement that some damage be proven(and not simply prove that the potential for damage exists). Furthermore the penalties delineated must be tied inexorably to those damages(except in cases where willful negligence can be demonstrated, and we can leave it up to the judges to dole out the punitive damages).

I'm aware that standing is a requirement in criminal proceedings, but a further requirement proving damages must be a part of any civil code, especially if we're going to use criminal proceedings and punishments to deal with civil complaints.

Edit: And if a little anarchy is the price to pay for a little more freedom, I say pay the man as long as the price is reasonable.
 
My opinion is similar to COE's. I could be OK with this as eliminating civil trials cannot be done, but I specifically don't like the Defamation part... I organized a contest for the most likely to coup the region months ago, I mean, what a defamation fest was that? everyone impeaching each other's reputation with ballots and everything. Those "cases" should be solved without entering the Court.

I also fear the possibility of accusing anyone for defamation to be used as a political weapon.

But you're absolutely right about TOS and they aren't addressed in the current law, so I'll keep an eye on this debate. I could end up voting for the whole thing if this turns out to be the best solution after all.
 
Treize_Dreizehn:
For instance, say you were to make a statement of pure opinion that offended someone. Then say that someone who was offended went on a campaign to discredit you by accusing you of all manner of wrong doing and doing so to the point that people believed their fabrications as fact. Then say it resulted in you being ostracized unjustly and driven from the region. Have not your rights been violated in a sweeping fashion?

Perhaps this is just my own perspective, but I revel in being accused of terrible things.

That said, if we accept the rest of your premise, we're just trading one freedom(expression) for another(freedom from wrongful persecution). There's no virtue to that exchange, and I'd offer that expression is a more important freedom.

In normal tort law, civil cases are specifically seeking monetary redress not to preserve the "rights" of people to avoid ostracism... but rather to specifically deal with the damages that such actions have caused. If by some measure this is found to be needed, it MUST be coupled with the requirement that some damage be proven(and not simply prove that the potential for damage exists). Furthermore the penalties delineated must be tied inexorably to those damages(except in cases where willful negligence can be demonstrated, and we can leave it up to the judges to dole out the punitive damages).

I'm aware that standing is a requirement in criminal proceedings, but a further requirement proving damages must be a part of any civil code, especially if we're going to use criminal proceedings and punishments to deal with civil complaints.

Edit: And if a little anarchy is the price to pay for a little more freedom, I say pay the man as long as the price is reasonable.


Slander, libel and Defamation are not protected forms of speech just as something like a death threat is not protected speech.

Specifically, one's right to free speech doesn't include yelling 'fire' in a crowded movie house nor does it include leveling libelous accusations in a negligent, reckless or malicious fashion.

Lennart:
My opinion is similar to COE's. I could be OK with this as eliminating civil trials cannot be done, but I specifically don't like the Defamation part... I organized a contest for the most likely to coup the region months ago, I mean, what a defamation fest was that? everyone impeaching each other's reputation with ballots and everything. Those "cases" should be solved without entering the Court.

I also fear the possibility of accusing anyone for defamation to be used as a political weapon.

But you're absolutely right about TOS and they aren't addressed in the current law, so I'll keep an eye on this debate. I could end up voting for the whole thing if this turns out to be the best solution after all.

Parody is not Defamation because it is an expression of opinion, or we could go as far as to say that it is 'art' and legitimate expression.
 
Romanoffia:
Slander, libel and Defamation are not protected forms of speech just as something like a death threat is not protected speech.

Specifically, one's right to free speech doesn't include yelling 'fire' in a crowded movie house nor does it include leveling libelous accusations in a negligent, reckless or malicious fashion.
You're equivocating death threats or shouting fire in a crowded theater with slander libel and defamation. First, we have to extricate the two, as they are not in any substantive way related.

Using the US as an example: Death threats and shouting fire in a crowded theater carry criminal penalties, because they are not protected free speech. The former is easily in the realm of harassment, and the latter is in the realm of risking actual harm to persons.

Libel, slander, and defamation are civil complaints. Civil complaints are handled entirely differently than criminal ones, and with good reason. Hell the UN Commission on Human Rights has outright said(in 2012) that criminalization of libel(and by extension, slander or defamation) is a violation of freedom of expression.

In the US, whose law I'm most familiar with, in order for successfully prove defamation(which we can use as a catch all term for defamation, libel, and slander), you must prove the statement to be false, that the statement caused harm, and that it was not researched properly. Furthermore, public officials and celebrities must prove that "actual malice" was a factor. That is to say that the person making the claim was absolutely aware that it was false, and said it anyway. Since we're all known to each other here on a semi-personal level(and almost all of us are public officials of some kind), that is the bar we have to clear.

Even with that hurdle to clear, there are several decent defenses recognized against claims of defamation.

Does a claim make no sense, or is it completely illogical? Doesn't matter. If a reasonable person might believe the claim, it's not defamation.

Is a claim reasonable, and made in good faith? Not defamation.

Is it simply an opinion? If so, it's not defamation.

Was it a claim made in anger, or is it obvious that it's just someone striking out? Not defamation.

And then, after it's all done and over with, if all of the hurdles are cleared, if it's certain that the defamation was made with the full knowledge of it's falsehood, with intent to harm the person defamed... civil penalties are enacted, not criminal ones. You penalize the defamer in such a way to make it too costly for her to do that again. You don't take away their rights to do it again. Because that would be limiting their free speech.

Slander, libel and defamation ARE protected free speech, and they should continue to be so.
 
Can we extract the defamation piece of this bill and debate and vote on that separately? I seems to me that the civil law piece, and maybe even the contempt piece, would be easier to pass as a separate bill.
 
True. I agree. They are two different issues all together and should be separate.

Let me re-word it to extract the 'contempt' issue which by its own rights ought to be a separate item.
 
OK, here we go. I have extracted the "Defamation" and "Contempt" portion of this bill as a separate issues not immediately relevant to title and purpose of the bill under advise from Ator.

Here is the amended proposed addition to the legal code:

Proposed: An addition to the Legal Code establishing a Civil Code as per the requirements of The Constitution of The North Pacific for the Court to handle Civil matters.

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

2. Civil Law shall be defined as all offenses in The North Pacific Civil Code that are between individuals, nations, entities that are not considered Criminal under The North Pacific Criminal Code in which any individual, nation or entity has sustained real damages.

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.

5. Civil Code shall be amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.
 
Completely unobjectionable. I like this newest draft as a foundation for civil law, and if that's the direction we'd like to go, I'd support this as that foundation.
 
This is the best way to proceed. It's clean, simple, logical and gives us a starting point to fill in this gap in the legal code.

I edited the original post in this thread to reflect and document the changes.

I think we should allow for a couple more days of comments before moving on to a formal debate just to make sure we have a workable bill that stands a reasonable chance of passing.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Roman, I think you've got some syntax issues in your latest draft, and don't forget it needs to be in Legal Code format. See Chapter 2 of the legal code for structure.

Sections and sub-sections are not required for this establishment of a Civil Code. Sections will be added for the various offenses as they are legislated by the RA.
Syntax errors? Oh, I see a couple of punctuation issues...

And the format is just fine. That is unless one is going to be really anal-retentive and repressed and then we can write it this way:


Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil Law shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between individual, between nations, or between other entities. In disputes between individuals, nations or other entities, the plaintiff(s) must have sustained actual damages. Specific misdemeanors shall be listed in The North Pacific Civil Code.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Proceedure

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.

Section 1.4 - Civil Code

5. Civil Code shall be created an amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.


Is that better or shall I get medieval with the legalize and expand it to several hundred pages? :P
 
5. Civil Code shall be created an amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.
This sentence has a few issues:
a. "civil code" -- if singular, it needs an "A" or "The"; if plural it needs an "s" (civil codes)
b. the Constitution uses "laws" and not "legislation," ("2. The Regional Assembly may enact, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.") and its a shorter word
c. there's an "an" that is missing a "d" (and)

giving us:
5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by legislation laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
5. Civil Code shall be created an amended as required by legislation enacted by the Regional Assembly.
This sentence has a few issues:
a. "civil code" -- if singular, it needs an "A" or "The"; if plural it needs an "s" (civil codes)
b. the Constitution uses "laws" and not "legislation," ("2. The Regional Assembly may enact, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.") and its a shorter word
c. there's an "an" that is missing a "d" (and)

giving us:
5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by legislation laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.
You are correct. That looks a lot better.

So, it would read as:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Civil Case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil Law shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between individual, between nations, or between other entities. In disputes between individuals, nations or other entities, the plaintiff(s) must have sustained actual damages. Specific misdemeanors shall be listed in The North Pacific Civil Code.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Proceedure

3. Civil Cases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rules to be established by The Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.

Section 1.4 - Civil Code

5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.

Ah, now that is much more clear and compact.
 
I've thought about this quite a bit and would like to propose the following changes to the current draft:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Ccivil Ccase may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil Lawsoffenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between individual, between nations, or between other entitiescitizens. In disputes between individuals, nations or other entities,where the plaintiff(s) must have sustained actual damages. Specific misdemeanorscivil offenses shall be listed in The North Pacific Civil Codethis chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Proceedure

3. Civil Ccases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rrules to be establishedadopted by Tthe Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties
4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.
4. Civil offenses may be punished by restrictions on forum privileges or impositions of limited duration, in a manner proportionate to the offense at the discretion of the Court unless specified in this chapter.


Section 1.4 - Civil Code

5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.

  • Change capitalization to be as consistent as possible both within the bill and with the Legal Code.
  • Clarify that offenses are defined as misdemeanors/suits, not the laws themselves.
  • Replace nations/entities/etc. with citizens, to improve consistency and remove any potential confusion. Connect that sentence to the one requiring actual damages.
  • Because we've defined the term 'civil offenses' we can use that to refer to the offenses themselves
  • Reference the chapter rather than the civil code again, to improve consistency with the Legal Code
  • There's no need to specify that civil cases be tried according to Criminal Procedure by default. The Court already has rules for civil procedures and can amend them as necessary, or point to the criminal procedures if desired.
  • Reworded the penalties section to be closer to the phrasing in the Legal Code currently for criminal acts. Removed the 'refusal to comply' phrase because it is not at all clear what the penalty for that is or whether it's a civil or criminal issue. I'd rather see 'contempt' as a separate bill.
  • Removed Section 1.4 altogether. I don't know why it's necessary and couldn't find an analog in the Legal Code.

I really like this bill and want to see it pass. I hope you'll consider my proposed amendments.
 
Ator, the reason for section 1.4 (Clause 5) would appear to be the history of civil cases and the type of claims that people have tried to use for such cases in our Court.
This provision limits the types of cases specifically to those defined in the new chapter of the Legal Code. That's the way I understood Roman's proposal, and that's the way I suggested changes as a result.
Had there been a clean slate the provision might not have been necessary, but the slate isn't clean.

As to the rest, it is Roman's bill and I will wait to see his comments before adding anything specific. I will say however, that as a matter of fundamental liberty under the Bill of Rights, the law needs to state what conduct may be subject to civil claims, subject to what remedies, and by what procedure beforehand. (That was the reason I responded the way I did to Flem's recent attempt, as I viewed the matter a gross violation of the Bill of Rights, and why I want to assure that no one else ever has to face such an illegal process in the future.)
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Ator, the reason for section 1.4 (Clause 5) would appear to be the history of civil cases and the type of claims that people have tried to use for such cases in our Court.
This provision limits the types of cases specifically to those defined in the new chapter of the Legal Code. That's the way I understood Roman's proposal, and that's the way I suggested changes as a result.
Had there been a clean slate the provision might not have been necessary, but the slate isn't clean.

As to the rest, it is Roman's bill and I will wait to see his comments before adding anything specific. I will say however, that as a matter of fundamental liberty under the Bill of Rights, the law needs to state what conduct may be subject to civil claims, subject to what remedies, and by what procedure beforehand. (That was the reason I responded the way I did to Flem's recent attempt, as I viewed the matter a gross violation of the Bill of Rights, and why I want to assure that no one else ever has to face such an illegal process in the future.)
Why does the first clause not cover that?
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I will say however, that as a matter of fundamental liberty under the Bill of Rights, the law needs to state what conduct may be subject to civil claims, subject to what remedies, and by what procedure beforehand. (That was the reason I responded the way I did to Flem's recent attempt, as I viewed the matter a gross violation of the Bill of Rights, and why I want to assure that no one else ever has to face such an illegal process in the future.)
I would just like to point out that Grosseschnauzer is not the arbiter of the meaning of the Bill of Rights...that would be the court.
 
Ator People:
I've thought about this quite a bit and would like to propose the following changes to the current draft:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No Ccivil Ccase may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil Lawsoffenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between individual, between nations, or between other entitiescitizens. In disputes between individuals, nations or other entities,where the plaintiff(s) must have sustained actual damages. Specific misdemeanorscivil offenses shall be listed in The North Pacific Civil Codethis chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Proceedure

3. Civil Ccases will be tried under standard Criminal Procedures or according to Court Rrules to be establishedadopted by Tthe Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties
4. Penalties for Civil offenses shall not be extended beyond reasonable limited forum privileges or other restriction or impositions of limited duration unless the guilty party refuses to comply.
4. Civil offenses may be punished by restrictions on forum privileges or impositions of limited duration, in a manner proportionate to the offense at the discretion of the Court unless specified in this chapter.


Section 1.4 - Civil Code

5. Civil Codes shall be created and amended as required by laws enacted by the Regional Assembly.

  • Change capitalization to be as consistent as possible both within the bill and with the Legal Code.
  • Clarify that offenses are defined as misdemeanors/suits, not the laws themselves.
  • Replace nations/entities/etc. with citizens, to improve consistency and remove any potential confusion. Connect that sentence to the one requiring actual damages.
  • Because we've defined the term 'civil offenses' we can use that to refer to the offenses themselves
  • Reference the chapter rather than the civil code again, to improve consistency with the Legal Code
  • There's no need to specify that civil cases be tried according to Criminal Procedure by default. The Court already has rules for civil procedures and can amend them as necessary, or point to the criminal procedures if desired.
  • Reworded the penalties section to be closer to the phrasing in the Legal Code currently for criminal acts. Removed the 'refusal to comply' phrase because it is not at all clear what the penalty for that is or whether it's a civil or criminal issue. I'd rather see 'contempt' as a separate bill.
  • Removed Section 1.4 altogether. I don't know why it's necessary and couldn't find an analog in the Legal Code.

I really like this bill and want to see it pass. I hope you'll consider my proposed amendments.
I like a lot of the changes, especially in capitalization and syntax.

On Section 1.4, you are likely correct in removing it - mainly because of the legal code analogue issue, and also that any civil law created by the RA would by necessity be added to the 'Civil' section of the Legal code.

You wording is much more compact and precise. Let me ponder the changes a bit to see if there are any unforeseen unintended results. But I like the edits you came up with.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Grosseschnauzer:
I will say however, that as a matter of fundamental liberty under the Bill of Rights, the law needs to state what conduct may be subject to civil claims, subject to what remedies, and by what procedure beforehand. (That was the reason I responded the way I did to Flem's recent attempt, as I viewed the matter a gross violation of the Bill of Rights, and why I want to assure that no one else ever has to face such an illegal process in the future.)
I would just like to point out that Grosseschnauzer is not the arbiter of the meaning of the Bill of Rights...that would be the court.
Do you even know the history of the Bill of Rights in TNP?

Or who wrote it?
 
Who wrote it is immaterial to its interpretation. It was adopted by the Regional Assembly as a body, and is now subject to interpretation by the Court of The North Pacific. There is no higher judicial authority.
 
It is totally relevant to demonstrate your fundamental lack of understanding of the history and culture of TNP.

You clearly need some lessons in that regard. The history of the founding documents are always relevant, which is one reason why there are archives.

Oh, that's right; precedent and history is only relevant to you when it suits your purposes.

So I ask the question again, and in the words of Adlai Stevenson, I am prepared to wait for an answer until Hell freezes over if need be.
 
The Court at the time will take a variety of factors into it's consideration if the law is challenged under the Bill of Rights - I'm sure. Crushing Our Enemies is right in that the Court is the highest authority on legal interpretation. Simply because you think it violates the Bill of Rights does not necessarily mean that it does, other's may have a differing opinion and argue that it doesn't - the Court will rule on which argument is the correct one. On the one hand, some TNPers assume that their interpretation of the law is the correct and final one, on the other the law is sometimes considered vague when it appears blatantly obvious to others. That is the nature of any region that spends a great deal of time in debating and amending the law.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Court did not rule on the illegality of Flem's action against you. They did not deem it to be against the Bill of Rights. Your claim that it was has not been proven in the Court. You delayed that case for almost a year, but your tactic of not saying anything in the final case was what paid off for you.

Flemingovia failed to prove that actual damage had occurred as a result of what you had said to him all that time ago. That is why his case against you was thrown out. What you said was not damaging to his reputation - if anything your conduct both in that case and outside of it was damaging to your own reputation far more than it was to his.

I would point out that I feel that COE served well on the bench and put regional interest first when considering precedent and the history of our laws. Of course, what is in the regional interest is subjective. I would encourage you to withdraw your comment, as it is unnecessarily snarky and rude.
 
Grosse, if you didn't treat me like something you scraped off the bottom of your shoe (as well as everyone else who isn't a pedantic dinosaur like yourself), I might have an open ear for your history lessons. As it is, however, you'll probably find a more willing audience for them up your own ass.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
It is totally relevant to demonstrate your fundamental lack of understanding of the history and culture of TNP.

You clearly need some lessons in that regard. The history of the founding documents are always relevant, which is one reason why there are archives.

Oh, that's right; precedent and history is only relevant to you when it suits your purposes.

So I ask the question again, and in the words of Adlai Stevenson, I am prepared to wait for an answer until Hell freezes over if need be.
I regret to inform the kind Administrator that he will not need to wait very long.

You see, where I come from, zero degrees Celsius is considered the freezing point of water. I have done a Google Search to check the temperature of Hell and have the following to present to you:

QPPokgQ.png


One hopes that the administrator will move somewhere warm, as hell clearly seems to not be a very nice place for a summer holiday.
 
I object to the reference to hell in the Regional Assembly. This sort of thing chips away at the separation of church and state, which is very important here in Kentucky, and makes secularists like myself into second class citizens.

However, I would point out that according to Dante's "Inferno" the ninth circle of hell is, indeed, frozen over. The assumption that hell is all about flames and fire is a misunderstanding by people who were not there when hell was created and do not know who created it.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
It is totally relevant to demonstrate your fundamental lack of understanding of the history and culture of TNP.

You clearly need some lessons in that regard. The history of the founding documents are always relevant, which is one reason why there are archives.

Oh, that's right; precedent and history is only relevant to you when it suits your purposes.

So I ask the question again, and in the words of Adlai Stevenson, I am prepared to wait for an answer until Hell freezes over if need be.
Ah, this is typical Gross behavior. Doesn't actually have a given reason for disliking something other than a vague sense of discomfort so he whips out the "TRADITION!" card and starts throwing it at the faces of those who dare to oppose him.

For the record, I find it ironic Gross would find Civil trials to be illegal an unconstitutional considering he didn't have a problem with their existence during his shameful time as Attorney General. It seems precedent and history is only relevant to Gross when it suits his purposes.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Romanoffia:
My, how these threads wander.
When Roman says a thread has gone off topic - you can be assured that it definitely has :fish:

Usually you are responsible for such travesties Rom :P
Hell, this time I didn't have a thing to do with it! :lol:

But, to bring things back onto topic. Here's the latest draft of the proposed law:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No civil case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil offenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between citizens. In disputes between individuals where the plaintiff(s) have sustained actual damages. Specific civil offenses shall be listed in this chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Procedure

3. Civil cases will be tried under rules to be adopted by the Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Civil offenses may be punished by restrictions on forum privileges or impositions of limited duration, in a manner proportionate to the offense at the discretion of the Court unless specified in this chapter.
 
Romanoffia:
mcmasterdonia:
Romanoffia:
My, how these threads wander.
When Roman says a thread has gone off topic - you can be assured that it definitely has :fish:

Usually you are responsible for such travesties Rom :P
Hell, this time I didn't have a thing to do with it! :lol:

But, to bring things back onto topic. Here's the latest draft of the proposed law:

Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No civil case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil offenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between citizens. In disputes between individuals where the plaintiff(s) have sustained actual damages. Specific civil offenses shall be listed in this chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Procedure

3. Civil cases will be tried under rules to be adopted by the Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Civil offenses may be punished by restrictions on forum privileges or impositions of limited duration, in a manner proportionate to the offense at the discretion of the Court unless specified in this chapter.
Looks good. The only thing I think needs to be adjusted is the second clause's second sentence. It doesn't stand on its own.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil offenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between citizens. [bgcolor=#ee4a2d]In disputes between individuals where the plaintiff(s) have sustained actual damages.[/bgcolor] Specific civil offenses shall be listed in this chapter.
 
Oooh, editing error on my part. :facepalm:


OK, here we go. I corrected the offending syntax in item No. 2. :D


Chapter 9: Civil Code

1. No civil case may be brought before the Court of the North Pacific against any citizen for any offense not listed in the Civil Code.

Section 1.1 - Civil Law and Civil Code

2. Civil offenses shall be defined as misdemeanors or suits that arise from disputes between citizens where the plaintiff(s) have sustained actual damages. Specific civil offenses shall be listed in this chapter.

Section 1.2 - Civil Trial Procedure

3. Civil cases will be tried under rules to be adopted by the Court.

Section 1.3 - Civil Penalties

4. Civil offenses may be punished by restrictions on forum privileges or impositions of limited duration, in a manner proportionate to the offense at the discretion of the Court unless specified in this chapter.
 
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