Astarial complaint against Empire of Narnia

Queen Astarial

Queen Astarial

TNPer
I would like to file a complaint against Empire of Narnia for violation of the COPS treaty and TNP law. I have made no edits to this logfile other than to bold the parts in question.

[07:41] * Empire_ofNarnia (***) has joined #tnp
[07:41] <Empire_ofNarnia> I am a badass.
[07:42] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Empire_ofNarnia
[07:42] <+Windy> why?
[07:44] * +Earth (***) Quit (Client Quit)
[07:44] * Earth (***) has joined #tnp
[07:44] <+FriarTuck> *glomph*
[07:44] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Earth
[07:45] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Why?
[07:46] <+Windy> are you a bad ass
[07:46] <+Empire_ofNarnia> I got a regional forum deleted for TOS violations.
[07:46] <+Windy> what forums?
[07:46] <+Empire_ofNarnia> The region Zoo's forum
[07:46] <+Windy> oh
[07:47] <+Empire_ofNarnia> It's an off-site forum
[07:47] <+Empire_ofNarnia> and I tricked a member into giving me the password
[07:47] <+Windy> bad you
[07:47] <+Empire_ofNarnia> yuup
[07:48] <+Empire_ofNarnia> I am a NS vigilante
[07:48] <+Windy> lol
[07:48] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Those guys will have their region smashed
[07:48] <+Windy> lol
[07:48] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Too bad TNP couldn't participate in the glorious raid
[07:49] <+Windy> your raiding?
[07:49] <+Tim> P
[07:49] <+Tim> Emp of Narn?
[07:49] <+Tim> You forum wrecked?
[07:50] <+Windy> :/
[07:50] <+Empire_ofNarnia> yes
[07:51] <+Funkadelia> lol
[07:51] <+Empire_ofNarnia> I P'wned a region's forum
[07:51] <+Empire_ofNarnia> It violated InvisonFree TOS
[07:51] <+Windy> bad you
[07:51] <+Empire_ofNarnia> and I reported
[07:51] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Good me
[07:51] <+Windy> lol
[07:51] <@Wham> you destroyesd a forum?
[07:52] <@Eluvatar> 11. "Crashing" is defined as any unauthorized action which could cause a forum to go out of service or lose information, including the deletion of posts, the deletion of a forum, spamming, or any other act of such kind.
[07:52] <@Eluvatar> I'm not at all certain that reporting a forum to Invisionfree counts under (11)
[07:52] <+Empire_ofNarnia> I reported-it was all good
[07:52] <+Empire_ofNarnia> If i violates TOS I was doing a good duty
[07:52] <+Empire_ofNarnia> it violates
[07:54] <+Tim> What forum?
[07:54] <@Wham> who violated the tos?
[07:54] <+Tim> How violating?
[07:54] <+Windy> Zoo
[07:54] <@flemingovia> good morning
[07:54] <+Windy> morning flem
[07:54] * +Earth (***) Quit (Quit: Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.)
[07:55] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Zoo violated TOS-self explantory if you know what the region is about
[07:55] <+Windy> Empire_ofNarnia
[07:55] <+Windy> what did they do?
[07:55] <+Funkadelia> Did it have pictures of supposed bestiality
[07:55] <+Funkadelia> ?
[07:55] <@Wham> a region makes no posts, individuals do
[07:55] <+Windy> ^
[07:56] <+Funkadelia> Because if it's "about" bestiality but no explicit imagery it doesnt violate TOS
[07:56] <+Empire_ofNarnia> Invision bans 'sexual content off any kind'
[07:56] <+Windy> oh
[07:56] <+Funkadelia> So saying that I think (I don't) Megan Fox is hot
[07:56] <+Funkadelia> An entire regional forum can get wiped out?
[07:56] <+Empire_ofNarnia> yep, the name of the forum was enough to ban it
[07:57] <+Windy> lol
[07:57] <+Empire_ofNarnia> it was the name of the forum. Like on NS bad names are dealt with more harshly
[07:57] <@Wham> ahh, no it's not.
[07:57] <+Windy> ^^^
[07:57] <+Funkadelia> It was called zoo, wasn't it?
[07:57] <+Windy> :/
[07:58] <@flemingovia> .r zoo
[07:58] <+FriarTuck> flemingovia: http://www.nationstates.net/region=zoo
[07:58] <@Wham> I went to the zoo as a kid, it had monkeys, lions, tigers ect
[07:58] <+Funkadelia> Region of Zoophilia
[07:58] <+Windy> lol
[07:58] <+Empire_ofNarnia> lol
[07:58] <+Funkadelia> Not explicitly sexual
[07:59] <+Durkadurkiranistan> lol, zoo
[08:00] <@Wham> not everyone who reads the word zoo, then has the urge to hump a donkey
[08:00] <@flemingovia> .r zoophillia
[08:00] <+FriarTuck> flemingovia: http://www.nationstates.net/region=zoophillia
[08:00] <@flemingovia> ah.
[08:00] <@flemingovia> No such region.
[08:00] <+Funkadelia> Their regional forums were called "Region of Zoophila" Flemingovia
[08:01] <@Eluvatar> flemingovia: Max had the region zoophilia deleted
[08:01] * Wham is now known as Wham|sleep
[08:01] <@Eluvatar> and 1000 cats created a new region named "zoo"
[08:01] <@mcmasterdonia> lol WHAT
[08:01] <@Eluvatar> .. then 1000 cats got deleted
[08:01] <@Eluvatar> later
[08:01] <@Eluvatar> It's in discussions of this that [violet] got a redtext warning
[08:01] <+Empire_ofNarnia> yep
[08:02] <+Empire_ofNarnia> I disagree with that region due to moral grounds so I reported the forum
Click to expand...

As for the relevant sections of legal code:

COPS:
Definitions:

Crashing: any action which could cause a forum to go out of service or lose information, including: the deletion of posts, the deletion of the forum, spamming, or any other act of this kind.

Phishing: Any attempts to gain forum controls or passwords by deception, especially by posing as administrators or moderators.
Click to expand...

TNP Law:
Section 1.5. Crashing, Phishing, or Spamming
11. "Crashing" is defined as any unauthorized action which could cause a forum to go out of service or lose information, including the deletion of posts, the deletion of a forum, spamming, or any other act of such kind.
12. "Phishing" is defined as any attempts to gain access to off-site property controls or passwords by deception, especially by posing as administrators or moderators for any unauthorized use.
16. No Nation of The North Pacific may perform, order, condone, or accept as legal, Crashing, Phishing, or Spamming.
Click to expand...


The definition of Crashing in the COPS treaty does not exclude reporting forums to Invisionfree from its definition of crashing, which it specifies as any action. TNP law restricts that clause to "unauthorized" actions, but does not lay out the guidelines for authorization in terms of who may take an action, what action may be allowed, or the circumstances that may trigger it.

Even if this act of destruction itself is legal under TNP law, Narnia admitted openly to phishing for the forum's password in order to carry it out, and there does not appear to be any ambiguity as to the legality of that.

Edit: Edited to remove IP addresses, at flemingovia's request.
 
Wait, so he/she reported the Forums of Zoo, the cat-humper region, and it was deleted by an InvisionFree Admin so that's forum destruction? I don't think so. Also, if you want to nitpick over definitions, which it seems you do, the forum was "closed" not "deleted". For all we know the forum is still 100% intact.

Cat-humper's closed forums can be found here.

This is my personal opinion, by-the-by, not one of a Justice.
 
I did not 'forum wreck' I just told a guy at Invision "Hey! check out this forum I found!" and he did what he had to do in order to enforce TOS. If that region did not want it's forum taken off they should have complied with the host's TOS and state/federal laws. The Invison Admins 'forum wrecked' if anything not me. Reporting a valid rule-breaker for TOS violations does not violate TNP law.
 
The COPS definition lists some direct actions (deletion of posts, forums, or spamming them) and then says "or any other act of such kind." In my personal opinion, reporting to Invisionfree does not match that definition.
 
I'll review the submitted evidence, but I would like to see any links at nationstates.net about the region deletion, because if [violet] received something prompting a region to be deleted, and this involved the off-site forums of the same region, then it would be relevant in my review.

As to the COPS treaty, while TNP law contains the required legislation in accord with the treaty, our statutes are actually broader than the treaty requirements, and their enforcement would not be dependent on out continued signatory status with the treaty. (Ought to know, I wrote the bill that brought those prohibitions into the Legal Code.)

So our measurement of legality is the Legal Code not the treaty.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I'll review the submitted evidence, but I would like to see any links at nationstates.net about the region deletion, because if [violet] received something prompting a region to be deleted, and this involved the off-site forums of the same region, then it would be relevant in my review.

As to the COPS treaty, while TNP law contains the required legislation in accord with the treaty, our statutes are actually broader than the treaty requirements, and their enforcement would not be dependent on out continued signatory status with the treaty. (Ought to know, I wrote the bill that brought those prohibitions into the Legal Code.)

So our measurement of legality is the Legal Code not the treaty.
Click to expand...
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=176278 at your service.
 
I must say that the treaty is utter crap since it basically says "If you see a regional forum break the law or the host's TOS don't report it or we will kick you out!!" What if a forum was hosting pornography or bomb/drug making information? Would it be a sin to report them then?

The region was deleted a while back for the same reason the forum got cut-name was inappropriate. This is an Invision matter-they made the call on whether or not it could stay on their site. I just showed them the URL.
 
Empire of Narnia:
I must say that the treaty is utter crap since it basically says "If you see a regional forum break the law or the host's TOS don't report it or we will kick you out!!" What if a forum was hosting pornography or bomb/drug making information? Would it be a sin to report them then?

The region was deleted a while back for the same reason the forum got cut-name was inappropriate. This is an Invision matter-they made the call on whether or not it could stay on their site. I just showed them the URL.
Click to expand...
The point here is your phishing. You openly admitted to deceiving them to get the password so you could purposely get their forums deleted.
 
I think the concept of trying someone for reporting a breach of ToU is, to be quite frank, ridiculous, especially when we have a rule requiring our own users to obey said ToU. If this actually does proceed any further I will be volunteering my services as legal counsel to Narnia.
 
The only thing I see that may be prosecutable is the phishing for the password which could be supported on the grounds that it was obtained under a false pretext.
I haven't made a final decision, as I have insufficient information to allege when and onto which forum URL (where), the conduct occured, and that date would have to be when Empire of Narnia was subject to TNP jurisdiction.
Everything involving [violet] I do not believe comes under the COPS treaty or the laws we enacted as a result of that treaty. I do not see us prosecuting since that deleted region was never an ally of TNP, and TNP was not involved in the matter to begin with,
 
When he says "password" does he mean regional password? Because I and many other raiders have used deception on multiple occasions to obtain regional passwords to raid a target. Also I have no idea how that would relate to COPS, which is suppose to be about preventing Forums Destruction.
 
Blue Wolf II:
When he says "password" does he mean regional password? Because I and many other raiders have used deception on multiple occasions to obtain regional passwords to raid a target. Also I have no idea how that would relate to COPS, which is suppose to be about preventing Forums Destruction.
Click to expand...
I did mean regional password (In-Game). As I said earlier spying is part of the raiding game and is allowed on the site.

To report a forum on Invision you just have to put in the URL and put it under a category. The Invision admins made the call on whether or not to delete the forum, not me. I just directed it to their attention.
 
Romanoffia:
Thanks for that mental image. I will have nightmares for a week. LOL!
Click to expand...
Yeah, that whole thing sure was creepy. That's why I had to report to Invision.

Even if he made his own forum he could still get it shut down for breaking RL law-what he does is illegal almost everywhere. That's why he got kicked from NS. It would just take a long time to go through the courts and the police would need more evidence then Invision needed. What he said on NS would be enough for the cops to get a warrant though. He straight-up confessed to his crime.
 
I did mean regional password (In-Game).
Click to expand...

That was not made clear in IRC, and seemed pointless enough in the context of forum destruction that forum password was a more likely interpretation.

When he says "password" does he mean regional password? Because I and many other raiders have used deception on multiple occasions to obtain regional passwords to raid a target. Also I have no idea how that would relate to COPS, which is suppose to be about preventing Forums Destruction.
Click to expand...

When raiders get a password to a region, it's not done in order to destroy the forum. Narnia spoke as though there was a link between gaining the password and being able to get rid of the forum, which ties the two acts together. If it were simple espionage, why even mention it?

I must say that the treaty is utter crap since it basically says "If you see a regional forum break the law or the host's TOS don't report it or we will kick you out!!
Click to expand...

You didn't see the forum break the law. You saw a name you didn't like, and you reported it out of malice. That, in my mind, is the difference between legitimate and illegitimate use of moderators as a weapon.

What if a forum was hosting pornography or bomb/drug making information? Would it be a sin to report them then?
Click to expand...

Good god, "sin"? Even this isn't a "sin", it's just mean (and possibly illegal, which is why I reported it). There's nothing illegal or sinful about pornography, and depending on where you live, the same goes for the others. There already exist plenty for forums for exactly these kinds of activities - is it your personal duty to destroy their communities too?

You think you're some moral crusader keeping the internet safe for children, but what you're actually doing is maliciously targeting a community because you think they might, possibly, be engaging in something you don't like. You weren't in the region and a member of the forum and upset by something that actually happened. You assumed they were doing something wrong, and got their forum destroyed based solely on your assumption.

And bragging about it just makes it worse.
 
There really wasn't much "might be" about it, 1000 Cats was pretty open about his *coughs* "animal erotica". He even had a topic on the forums to that effect (I think it was called "Ask a zoophile anything") that got so damn creepy ADMIN actually blocked viewing access to everyone who wasn't NS game staff.

I think the reason that Empire of Narnia mentioned the password bit is that it made his story seem more interesting. That and perhaps access to the more "erotic" sections of the Zoo forum were limited to regional members only? I can't be sure, but that's sort of what it seems like Narnia is saying.
 
If I may leave my opinion.

What EoN did was wrong. It matters not whether the region was zoophile or normal. From what I'm understanding, he had no evidence that the regional forum had any actual zoophilic topic on it. He chose to report it simply because it had the name, which is completely uncalled for. You shouldn't tear down a forum without any evidence.

I mean, IMO any forum destruction is just wrong... But to do it without any proof of what Narnia described as... "sinful"? That's past wrong. Even if he didn't take the action that shut down the forum, the weight should fall onto his shoulders. The region still lost their forums, because of something that EoN did. That should be classified as forum destruction. Frankly, I don't care if they were zoophiles. Forum destruction is wrong.

What made it even more wrong was that he actually boasted about it on the IRC! To take a line from our good Gondorian Boromir. "One does not simply boast about forum destruction"

Now mind me, I don't really like what Zoo is... interested in.... either, but I'm not going to go around causing destruction of their discussion boards because of it. Whether it violates the treaty or not, I've lost most of my respect for Empire of Narnia for what he did.
 
hmmmmmmm...

Empire of Narnia;

speaking as someone who's been accused of doing exactly the same thing to another region's forum (GGR), and being someone who very recently tried to burn Zoo to the ground, I'm going to be quite clear to you- if you think getting another regions forum deleted is something to be proud of, you are kind of f***ed (censored by GBM) in the head. If the contents violated Invisionfree ToS, then I can't really have sympathy for the owners of the region (just like with GGR), but I fail to see how and why you are a hero here.
 
Tim-Opolis:
If I may leave my opinion.

What EoN did was wrong. It matters not whether the region was zoophile or normal. From what I'm understanding, he had no evidence that the regional forum had any actual zoophilic topic on it. He chose to report it simply because it had the name, which is completely uncalled for. You shouldn't tear down a forum without any evidence.

I mean, IMO any forum destruction is just wrong... But to do it without any proof of what Narnia described as... "sinful"? That's past wrong. Even if he didn't take the action that shut down the forum, the weight should fall onto his shoulders. The region still lost their forums, because of something that EoN did. That should be classified as forum destruction. Frankly, I don't care if they were zoophiles. Forum destruction is wrong.

What made it even more wrong was that he actually boasted about it on the IRC! To take a line from our good Gondorian Boromir. "One does not simply boast about forum destruction"

Now mind me, I don't really like what Zoo is... interested in.... either, but I'm not going to go around causing destruction of their discussion boards because of it. Whether it violates the treaty or not, I've lost most of my respect for Empire of Narnia for what he did.
Click to expand...
You obviously never read the posts on that board. They did mention, in multiple places the sexualized abuse of animals. They also mentioned that it had a 'hidden board' that likely contained the more graphic content.

I find it rather strange that people place so much value on something as unimportant as a free internet forum, even when it's a meeting place for criminals and animal abusers. I just reported this to Invision, remember. The Admins would be able to view the posts, including those ones on the suspected hidden forum. All I did was help Invision enforce their own TOS. It was only a matter of time anyways before their own admins found out about it and deleted it. If these Zoo people didn't want their forum shut down they should have read the TOS. I did nothing wrong.

You probably think the NS Moderators are horrible evil monsters for deleting nations and regions 'just for their names' Forum destruction isn't bad in this case-Moderators do the same things, [violet] shut down the whole Zoophilia region in the past because the name was bad.

EDIT: And why are regional forums so sacred that touching one is evil, while destroying a region, which is an online community, where people communicate through the RMB a good thing? Either way you are destroying a community by removing the meeting place. Many regions only have RMB's and no forums but nobody seems to care when they get destroyed by raiders. You can make a new forum (that abides by the rules) just like you can found a new region.
 
Section 1.5. Crashing, Phishing, or Spamming
11. "Crashing" is defined as any unauthorized action which could cause a forum to go out of service or lose information, including the deletion of posts, the deletion of a forum, spamming, or any other act of such kind.
12. "Phishing" is defined as any attempts to gain access to off-site property controls or passwords by deception, especially by posing as administrators or moderators for any unauthorized use.
16. No Nation of The North Pacific may perform, order, condone, or accept as legal, Crashing, Phishing, or Spamming.
Click to expand...

From reading the thread several times, I am not convinced that a violation of these provisions of the codified legal code can be proven to exist.

First I have not received any information (including looking at the links posted throughout the thread) as to when these violations allegedly occurred. That would be an issue if the acts complained of predate TNP's adoption of the codified legal code, since the old legal code was repealed in its entirety, and with the lack of dating, it cannot be proved that the current legal code applies in order to avoid an issue of ex posto facto laws under the Bill of Rights (which was recently amended, and has not ever been repealed.

Second, any action by [violet] or the in-game Moderators are outside the jurisdiction of review under TNP laws. Likewise, where a host of a forum, such as Zetaboards/Invisionfree, enforces their own Terms of Service and Terms of Use, with respct to a hosted forum, that would also appear to be outside the jurisdiction of review under TNP law. (And even the enforcement of the ToS/ToU by our forum moderation term is outside the jurisdiction of our TNP judiciary.)

The only thing left is whether obtaining a password of a in-game region (and not its off-site forums) comes within the COPS Treaty-related provisions of the clauses quoted above from Chapter 1 of the codified Legal Code. Even if we could ignore the fact that obtaining a region's in-game password by any means permitted in-game, such as act is not, on its face, a violation of Clauses 11, 12, or 16.

Therefore, I have to conclude that based on the information presented by Astarial and others, there is noting upon which a valid indictment can be filed, and there is zero likelihood of obtaining a conviction if an indictment were filed.

This matter is closed as no valid indictment can be issued.
 
This case is hereby reopened. It is not for the Attorney General to decide, carte blanche, if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Section 1.5. Crashing, Phishing, or Spamming
11. "Crashing" is defined as any unauthorized action which could cause a forum to go out of service or lose information, including the deletion of posts, the deletion of a forum, spamming, or any other act of such kind.
Click to expand...

While the clause above cites examples of unauthorized actions, this should not be taken as exhaustive. This office plans to pursue this case.

Attorney Assigned Tyler
 
What does this have to do with me, Narnia? The case is Astarial v. Narnia. Not Tim v. Narnia.
 
We all know who pulls the strings around here Tim. You hate me and my awesome badges and you are willing to dig up this old fossil of a case to get back at me.
 
That's enough commentary from the peanut gallery.

If you have something to add pertinent to this case, please comment or send a PM to myself or the assigned attorney.

If not, please do not post here.
 
How did he violate the COPS,treaty? He did,not destroy the forum himself. He reported said forum because they violated the TOS and the folks over at IF deated the forum. So I fail to see on what grounds this case could be tried on.
 
Joshua:
How did he violate the COPS,treaty? He did,not destroy the forum himself. He reported said forum because they violated the TOS and the folks over at IF deated the forum. So I fail to see on what grounds this case could be tried on.
Click to expand...
He also phished for the password, which is a COPS violation.
 
My understanding is the PW was to the region not the forum. If that is the case there was no violation of the COPS treaty.
 
The case will be presented to the courts. If we are able to argue that he committed a crime, rest assured the public will be privy to the evidence supporting the same.

In lieu of that, I'd like to ask folks not to opine within this thread about the particulars of the case.
 
punk d, I believe I have presented all of the evidence necessary for this to proceed in the original complaint, namely, logs of the accused's confession as well as segments from CoPS and TNP law. Please let me know if there's anything I've missed that you still require.
 
I've assigned this one to Funk.

There are a lot of cases and we're a little backlogged at the moment, but we're trying to catch up.
 
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